Geek or Grog, looking for info 12/6/44 VB

[Nelson 1812]

Interested to know what German (SS?) infantry played a part in the villers- bocage, along side Whittmann's attack on point 213... and then later throughout that day.

Read pages, but cannot find much on the Germany infantry, for that day.

Thanks for the help.

[zmoney]

I believe it was Panzer Lehr infantry.

[John Kettler]

Nelson 1812,

Henri Marie, a local historian for the VB area, says a handful, but doesn't indicate the formation or quantify the handful. One KW with two German soldiers was observed leaving VB at high speed as the British entered.

Marie, Henri (2004) [1993]. Villers-Bocage: Normandy 1944. Bayeux: Editions Heimdal; Bilingual edition. ISBN 978-2-84048-173-7.

Info's here (tail end of paragraph after Advance)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Villers-Bocage

Under Late Afternoon (tail end of last paragraph)

"Two grenadier battalions of the 2nd Panzer Division attacked from the south and were engaged by B Squadron 4CLY, who inflicted heavy losses on the German infantry.[151] British positions on the main street came under attack from a Panzer IV until it was destroyed.[154] Both sides had begun calling artillery fire into the town, and several British mortars and a carrier were destroyed.[154] By 18:00 the QRR battalion headquarters had become pinned down and as pressure built, Hinde reluctantly decided that his force must be withdrawn. In his judgement they would be unable to continue to hold the town once darkness fell.[152][153][154] Under cover of a smoke screen and shellfire laid down by 5RHA, to which US V Corps's artillery batteries added their weight, the infantry pulled back. Last to leave were the tanks of 4CLY.[154][155] The Germans harassed the withdrawing units with artillery fire, inflicting some casualties, and infantry from Tracey-Bocage attacked the British as they fell back, resulting in a two and a half hour battle. Despite taking heavy losses the German infantry were not repulsed until around 22:30.[154][156]"

So, later on two Grenadier battalions of 2nd Panzer Division attacked and got a hot reception. As the British withdrew, whatever infantry the Germans had in Tracey Bocage became heavily involved. Again, not specified. Both of the footnote are from Marie, pp 84, 85.

Closer reading of the map and text tells me the troops in VB were likely recon elements of 2 PD. As best I can tell, Panzer Lehr wasn't n the game yet, but put in an attack late afternoon when it closed.

Summing up, I see no SS infantry in VB. No SS of any sort except 101st SS Heavy Panzer Battalion in the VB fight.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

John Kettler

[zmoney]

John wasn't it the 501st SS? Maybe I am not remembering correctly.

[John Kettler]

zmoney,

No, but I had to check. The 101st SS Heavy Panzer Battalion was redesignated the 501st SS Heavy Panzer Battalion in late 1944 when it received King Tigers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101st_SS_Heavy_Panzer_Battalion

See also this under the above designation. Note VB pics and captions.

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tigers-02.htm

Heavy Panzer Battalion 501 was an Army (Heer) unit, not SS. The Bovington Tiger 1 was from the 501st.

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tigers.htm

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Nelson 1812,

I may've made a bit of a breakthrough. Here is photographic evidence of German infantry on the scene. The caption says they're from the 101st Heavy Panzer Battalion, but I don't see any SS insignia, so something's wrong somewhere. We need uniform grogs. Stat.

http://www.strijdbewijs.nl/uitbraak/bocage3eng.htm

Regards,

John Kettler

[Wodin]

Here is a copy paste from the website John..

"Meanwhile at 'Point 213', 1. Kompanie Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 101 under command of SS-Hauptsturmführer Rolf Möbius had arrived with eight Tiger tanks"

[Nelson 1812]

Thanks Guys...

Jim1954a (Bobs) also came up with this thread.

http://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=27940

[John Kettler]

Wodin,

I saw that, but he'd specifically asked about SS infantry. Unless the guys in the pics are such, then I can't find any.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Nelson 1812]

Sorry for any confusion, but it was for any infantry. I placed the SS in brackets with a question mark as to include them.

[xellos]

The Light Company(4th Kp) of the 101st sPA and some SS PK personnels came to VB on June 14th,but they didnt take part in any battles there.

German Luft PK personnels had also arrived in VB on June 16th,they shot some propagganda photos just like the SS Pks did,that's why there were Germans with different uniforms in those pictures.

Some resources claimed the 2nd Panzer Division's Recon units had joined the fight on June 13th, the British AARs proved it as well(Desert Rats had captured a few of them on the morning of June 13th).

[John Kettler]

Good thread, with some useful and new to me finds.

Regards,

John Kettler

[ASL Veteran]

Interested to know what German (SS?) infantry played a part in the villers- bocage, along side Whittmann's attack on point 213... and then later throughout that day.

Read pages, but cannot find much on the Germany infantry, for that day.

Thanks for the help.

I just read the account of that day's activity in "Michael Wittman and the Waffen SS Tiger Commanders of the Leibstandarte in WW2: Volume 2" and it seems pretty clear to me that there were no German infantry involved. Time and time again the personal account will read as "to continue without infantry support was madness" or "In spite of not having any infantry support we did x anyway." and stuff like that. So it's very clear that no German infantry were present. The 12th SS was heavily engaged elsewhere and the Panzer Lehr only sent some Pz IV tanks. The 901st Panzergrenadier Regiment (Panzer Lehr) was probably the closest infantry but they were engaged elsewhere.

I think that's the whole point of why the action is considered so 'heroic'. There was nothing else in the vicinity that could counter the British force and if Wittman had failed apparently the front would have been compromised.

[xellos]

I've found three photos which show several members of German 2nd Panzer Division who had been captured by the Desert Rats on June 13th morning somewhere west of Villers-bocage when the 7th Armored Division marched towards their destination.

According to some threads,these men were replacemental personnels who had been sent to the 2nd PzD(notice their Gebirgsjaegers badges) .

Other British accounts also proved there were lots of Germans hidden in VB or Point 213 during the battle .

Lots of German infantry men had been shot dead or captured when A sqruadron of 4th London Yeomanry Regiment took the town and the Point 213.

Captain Dyas said he had been shot by German MG when he tried to return to his Crownwell tank ,his eye got hurt by the bullets.

Several accounts from VB locals said they had seen German Armored cars somewhere east of VB or hidden along side of N175( under the trees).

Lt Lockwood said his Firefly tank 's first shot made one building nearby collapsed and buried the German MG gunner.

One of the Luft PK's shot shows a German KFZ70 Car destroyed by A Squadron of 4th London Yeomanry on the morning of June 13th before Wittmann's Attack(on Point 213).

[ASL Veteran]

In the account I read it mentions that 'Train' personnel - as in supply and support personnel - were involved in the fighting. There is mention that the cook, a 'Hiwi' with a butcher knife, captured several cowering British soldiers. Supply orderlies and cooks aren't infantry though so it depends on what is being asked.

[Nelson 1812]

Good read with some interesting photos:

http://chindits.wordpress.com/2011/03/30/the-battle-for-villers-bocage-normandy-1944/