Hello (and a general sort of query)

[thebigJ_A]

Hey all. I'm new here. Figured I'd say hello.

I picked up Battle for Normandy + Commonwealth Forces & the 2.0 patch a week back and have been enjoying myself immensely.

I wondered if I might tap into some of the general knowledge of the veterans here a bit. Nothing mechanical, as I'm getting a handle on things, I think, at least not now. I was interested in something a bit more 'broad strokes'.

I'm wondering about the strengths and weaknesses, advantages and disadvantages, of the various forces represented in the game (British, Heer, American, SS, etc.) as you guys see them. This is knowledge I'd be ale to glean over time through play, but I thought I might get a head start. That way, over a shorter time, I'd figure out more detailed differences.

Basically I'm offering a space for some grognards to hold forth at whatever length they like, and taking the opportunity for my own edification!

[Macisle]

Welcome to the game!

Others will give you more and better info, but here's a start:

Nationalities in and of themselves do not have "special abilities/characteristics" like they do, say, in Advanced Squad Leader. Rather, their level of training, experience, and factors like personal leadership attributes combine in a rich mix to help determine performance. National doctrine does play a role, however. That can determine the number of teams into which you can break squads. This can have a big impact, as it determines your number of maneuver elements (in CMFI, this severely impacts the Italians). Also, some formations, like SS and airborne, are elite, and therefore generally have units of higher quality than non-elite formations.

Equipment is faithfully modeled and understanding your weapon mix is critical. For example, in an American squad, the BAR serves to give the squad a bit of extra firepower, but is not the primary weapon of the squad (the squad's primary firepower is spread across the men in the form of semi-auto rifles). In German and British squads, however, the squad's LMG complement is its base of firepower.

What this means is that with US squads, you don't have to worry as much about keeping your BARs active and maintaining teams so as to use your BAR most effectively. If you lose one, it's probably not a biggie.

However, in contrast, most British squads only have one Bren and if it is lost, the squad's effectiveness takes a major hit. You need to protect your Brens and if at all possible, recover them when lost. They should also usually be kept back, providing fire support, rather than going in close with assault teams.

The same goes for the Germans, but you usually get more LMGs.

US squads also have more men in them, which means that you usually get more fire teams out of them to maneuver with.

There is a lot more to discuss on this, as well as talking about armor, artillery and such.

I'll let others jump in to fill in the gaps.

[permanent666]

maybe not the question of the OP but i really prefer the british airborne squads - you can give suppression fire, over-watch and assault at the same time

[agusto]

The british PIAT is the only hand-held AT 'rocket' that can be fired from within a building. Shreck, Bazooka and Panzerfausts cannot be fired fromm inside a building. This gives the PIAT an advantage in urban environments.

The german Panther and Tiger and the JP V are in general noteably harder to kill from the front than most allied tanks and usually have more firepower, although there are exceptions. The british Firefly and the amiercan Sherman 75W for example both have a gun roughly equal to the Panthers 75mm and the british Churchill variants all have exceptinally thick frontal armor (even more than the Tiger). Wich tank wins a duell however very much depends on how they are used by the player.

[Macisle]

maybe not the question of the OP but i really prefer the british airborne squads - you can give suppression fire, over-watch and assault at the same time

The "independent" British airborne formations really pack some firepower!

[c3k]

The British line units shine when combined, as they were supposed to be, with the various supporting arms. Alone, British infantry is the weakest of the US/CW/German triumvirate.

Add some Vickers, plenty of 25 pounder artillery, and some Churchills into the mix, and you've got a pretty good force. British-style infantry alone, is very much "light infantry": thin on men, short on firepower. But they're fun to play!

[Macisle]

I really enjoy playing with standard British line units. And I love the look of their uniforms and gear.

In fact, all the major combatants in WWII had cool uniforms (including the French and Italians), IMO. Each unique and cool in its own way.

I don't much care for modern uniforms. I find them rather samey and boring.

[Macisle]

Oh, and to the OP, be sure to get a handle on the British light mortar. It doesn't do indirect fire and carries very limited ammo, but if used well, it can be VERY useful. It also has a pretty good supply of smoke rounds. Those can come in WAY handy. When I'm playing as the US, I often miss having those little suckers!

[Macisle]

On the US side of things, Stuart light tanks and Greyhounds (as of V2.0) carry canister rounds. Canister is like Jolly-Green-Giant-sized buckshot. It has a short range, but can really tear up infantry!

British Stuarts don't have canister.

[thebigJ_A]

Huh. I didn't think canister was still being used as late as wwii. Which leads to a specific question. Some vehicles have specific ammo, like sabot (which I didn't realize existed so early) or HEAT. Is there a way to get a unit to use a certain ammo, or do they just decide based on the target?

I wasn't sure how to use those small British mortars, since they weren't showing up in the support tab. I guess they're for lobbing rounds into the next hedgerow?

I started off playing Americans, just because I know most about them. I got used to being able to split the infantry into three biggish teams, but the Brits and Germans are very different (and different from each other).

[Barkhorn1x]

Huh. I didn't think canister was still being used as late as wwii. Which leads to a specific question. Some vehicles have specific ammo, like sabot (which I didn't realize existed so early) or HEAT. Is there a way to get a unit to use a certain ammo, or do they just decide based on the target?

Yes, canister was made for the US 37mm gun found on the M5 Stuart and M8 Greyhound and no, you cannot choose what type of round the crew uses.

[Macisle]

Here's some other stuff that just came to mind:

On grenades...

(IIRC) Allied doctrine treated them as a general close-range offensive/defensive support weapon. In contrast, German doctrine treated them as, and designed them specifically for, a key close-range assault weapon. The handle-design of the "potato masher" grenade allowed the Germans to throw them farther and perhaps a bit more accurately.

In the game, Germans tend to throw them more often and farther than their Allied counterparts. For both sides, quality of troops also determines how often they will throw them. The better the troops, the more they will throw. You can't control exactly when they throw them, but if you use the Target command at very close range, teams should include them in the attack (though they don't always). The general rule for assualting with any nation's infantry is: suppress from a safer distance with your LMGs while using assault teams (broken off with the assault team command) to close and then use the Target command with them to hopefully throw grenades at close range targets (area fire at close range).

Speaking of troop quality, another thing to know is that both experience/training AND motivation are separate parts of the "troop quality" equation. You can have green troops who are highly motivated (greenhorns fresh off the boat, but itchin' for a fight!) and crack troops who are not (even the most elite troops will be burned out after too many days of combat, or a shell-shocking combat experience). Experience/training level (Green, Regular, Veteran, etc.) mostly impacts things like how well the unit uses cover and concealment, accuracy and frequency of fire, and spotting ability. Motivation mostly impacts how much "heat" a unit will be willing to endure during combat before cowering and/or bugging out. I had a green German unit (probably with low motivation) surrender the other day after receiving two bazooka shots. They didn't take any casualties or wounds, and weren't even pinned (they were behind bocage and the attacker-a sole bazooka man-was behind bocage across the street), but that was enough for them. The first guy surrendered and then the others did in quick succession (team members may not all surrender at once, see just below).

The game actually models attributes (I believe) for each soldier. So, you've got the overall quality of the unit, plus the quality of each man. Normally, the "each man" part is all under the hood. But as you take casualties, you can see that in effect. So, if the team leader buys it, you'll see the leadership rating for the team change to that of whoever took over. Normally, the squad leader and assistant have the best ratings, but under the hood, every man has them (correct me if I'm wrong here, folks). This is likely why some guys will surrender and others may keep fighting or run away to fight later.

An illustration of some of the above:

The other day, I was testing something and had some US teams closing in on an SS squad (AI) trapped (so I thought) in a corner of bocage. Area fire had taken out all but two men, who ran out of LOS. I got careless and just sent my three US teams running in at different angles to get LOS and take 'em out. Well...

The two SS guys started chucking grenades like mad and shattered my attack group. Then, they ducked out a hole in the bocage and escaped! It was like watching an action sequence in a movie. I ceasefired and checked out the two SS dudes. It was a veteran team lead by a +2 leader, with a rifleman under his command. Now, were that leader to be taken out, the remaining rifleman's rating would have come into play, giving the team (one dude here, but the rules applies) a likely lower rating. Had the team been green with a 0 (or worse) leader, then they may not have thrown many/any grenades. And, they were likely highly motivated. Had they had low motivation (and perhaps a lower-quality leader), they might have surrendered when my guys approached.

[Pak40]

American 60mm mortars can be your best friend in a tight bocage map. Use them in a direct fire role for fast and accurate fire, but make sure to support them with infantry so they aren't the only targets to enemy fire.

[$Pec5]

Regardless of what army you are playing, if your tanks are even remotely near enemy infantry keep them buttoned up. Small arms fire is very effective at taking out tank unbuttoned tank commanders.

If you have played CMx1 games such as CMBB keep in mind that half tracks and armored cars are much more vulnerable to small arms fire in CMBN compared to CMBB.

[womble]

If you have played CMx1 games such as CMBB keep in mind that half tracks and armored cars are much more vulnerable to small arms fire in CMBN compared to CMBB.

Tru dat. In my current PBEM, the OpFor rolled up a couple of T30 halftracks (with 75mm shorty howitzers, for those unfamiliar with summer '43 US stuff) and both were made to flee solely by the application of small arms fire and light mortar harrassment at about 350m. One's crew dismounted before (I think) losing a man (though the hail of bullets and some mortar shrapnel soon changed that) and bugged out, the other backed off largely intact, with at least one crew casualty. These are half tracks with great big gun shields, and mostly pretty square on to my fire.

[Quintus Sertorius]

For a new player, I would advise learning which vehicles are vulnerable -- and invulnerable or nigh-invulnerable -- to which kinds of enemy fire. For example, while the M2 .50 cal. will rip through most german armored cars in short order, the 232 series, including the Puma, can withstand it quite easily as long as you keep the front armor pointed forward (turn your flank toward it and you're still dead, of course). Knowing that sort of thing is extremely useful when deciding whether to stand or run.

[agusto]

For a new player, I would advise learning which vehicles are vulnerable -- and invulnerable or nigh-invulnerable -- to which kinds of enemy fire.

There is a very useful chart made by Marco Bergman:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=98847

[Michael Emrys]

There is a very useful chart made by Marco Bergman:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=98847

Yike! Thirty years ago I would have eaten that up. Now, somewhat regrettably, I look at it and think, "I'm playing a game here, not working on a doctoral dissertation."

But seriously, a great piece of work and I am confident a useful guide for those who want to get so deeply into it.

Michael

[$Pec5]

For a new player, I would advise learning which vehicles are vulnerable -- and invulnerable or nigh-invulnerable -- to which kinds of enemy fire.QUOTE]

Regarding this, the Panther Tank's front armor is pretty much invulnerable to everything the allies have save for a 17pdr ADPS shot or a lucky shot from an M10 or Sherman outfitted with a 76mm...

[thebigJ_A]

There is a very useful chart made by Marco Bergman:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=98847

I love it. I've got his silhouettes mod that adds little bars to show how thick armor is (including bits the vanilla defense report thing doesn't show, like lower hull) and the vehicle's gun penetration, but I didn't realize it took slope into effect. It hasn't got the numbers version shown in the preview (third post) which, though cluttered, I'd prefer.

On the charts there's things like "design flaw", "quality flaw", and "armor flaw" (and even one that says "pioneer vehicle", though idk what that has to do with the data in the chart...). Is that stuff modeled in the game? And if so, how?

[Quintus Sertorius]

Silhouettes, bars, and charts are well and good, but you'll never learn it like you'll learn it from seeing it in the game. There are all sorts of little effects you'll come to appreciate, like degradation to optics, damage to external grenade launchers, etc.