Map Project: Caen area

[Rokko]

I am actually making better progress on this than expected. Might be I manage to finish this before February. That is a raw and lite version without objectives, units, AI plans, etc. and without Flavor Objects.

BTW I also have some other maps in WIP status some of which are in near equal completion status like this one.

One featuring Rauray-Tessel-Brettevillette and one featuring Villons-les-Buissons just north of Buron.

[Aragorn2002]

Excellent. Such maps are essential for this game. I always thought every CM game should be launched with a large number of maps of the most important battlefields, like in the Close Combat series. Fortunately people like you can make that happen, Rokko.

[Sgt Schultz]

Having a "clean" version as well as a full-flavour one is a very good idea.

Leaving sheds and "outhouses" is one thing, but having scads of telephone poles, rubble, woodpiles etc can really add to load times for lower-end systems.

Looking forward to downloading this one.

[noob]

BTW I also have some other maps in WIP status some of which are in near equal completion status like this one.

One featuring Rauray-Tessel-Brettevillette and one featuring Villons-les-Buissons just north of Buron.

How big are these maps ?

[Rokko]

Each about 2x2km.

[noob]

Each about 2x2km.

Would it be possible for me to expand them to 4x4 km ?

[Broadsword56]

Noob,

You can always expand maps like these if they're based on the actual terrain, provided you locate the relevant area on a source image (like Google Earth), use the overlay function, and carefully watch the scaling of your overlay and the direction you extend the map within the CMBN editor.

The really tricky thing about extending existing maps is matching things up if the original mapper rotated the original game map from a N orientation (for example, to get a straight road). Then you'd have the extra challenge of hand-tweaking the rotation of your Google Earth screen, and trying to define your expanded map area to match the original orientation. [This is one of the reasons why I advocate that mappers of real places try and keep a N orientation and also try and base one or more map corners on a a real grid coordinate intersection. It would make community expansion projects and campaign maps much easier to do.]

So the way I'd go about it is:

1. Make a jpeg of Rokko's map and overlay it on the actual terrain in GE, matching it as exactly as possible.

2. Rotate the GE screen to get it to the orientation you need (if N is top, then Shift+N always gets the screen to exactly that orientation).

3. Use the ruler tool in meters and measure out the extended boundaries of your desired area, setting GE placemarks at the corners.

4. Use the draw polygon tool to click on all 4 corners of your desired map area. (I like to use a white 2pt outlined but not filled box).

5. Zoom in and save the screen image -- it will be a jpeg. (If you want to be really detailed, take a number of images at 90m elevation and stitch them into one. But I usually just take one image as close as I can zoom in with a full screen).

6. In the CMBN editor, open the Rokko map. Now you have to do some tricky math to calculate how much the original needs to expand on any given side to match your overlay. Use the sizing arrows in the upper right corner and extend the map EXACTLY the number of meters necessary in EXACTLY the right direction(s) to get to your 4000m x 400m size.

7. Turn the jpeg from your reference image into a bmp overlay for CMBN and crop it exactly on your white boundaries. Place it into the z folder.

8. Open the game editor again. What you should see is a 4000m x 4000m map, with Rokko's original showing in it's exact place, and blank areas in the areas you extended. Your GE overlay, in those new areas, should show you what to draw in order to fill in the rest of the map.

(You'll still have to do the elevations in the new areas and make sure they mesh well with the original ones.)

So, it's very doable -- but no one said it was easy!

[noob]

Noob,

You can always expand maps like these if they're based on the actual terrain, provided you locate the relevant area on a source image (like Google Earth), use the overlay function, and carefully watch the scaling of your overlay and the direction you extend the map within the CMBN editor.

The really tricky thing about extending existing maps is matching things up if the original mapper rotated the original game map from a N orientation (for example, to get a straight road). Then you'd have the extra challenge of hand-tweaking the rotation of your Google Earth screen, and trying to define your expanded map area to match the original orientation. [This is one of the reasons why I advocate that mappers of real places try and keep a N orientation and also try and base one or more map corners on a a real grid coordinate intersection. It would make community expansion projects and campaign maps much easier to do.]

So the way I'd go about it is:

1. Make a jpeg of Rokko's map and overlay it on the actual terrain in GE, matching it as exactly as possible.

2. Rotate the GE screen to get it to the orientation you need (if N is top, then Shift+N always gets the screen to exactly that orientation).

3. Use the ruler tool in meters and measure out the extended boundaries of your desired area, setting GE placemarks at the corners.

4. Use the draw polygon tool to click on all 4 corners of your desired map area. (I like to use a white 2pt outlined but not filled box).

5. Zoom in and save the screen image -- it will be a jpeg. (If you want to be really detailed, take a number of images at 90m elevation and stitch them into one. But I usually just take one image as close as I can zoom in with a full screen).

6. In the CMBN editor, open the Rokko map. Now you have to do some tricky math to calculate how much the original needs to expand on any given side to match your overlay. Use the sizing arrows in the upper right corner and extend the map EXACTLY the number of meters necessary in EXACTLY the right direction(s) to get to your 4000m x 400m size.

7. Turn the jpeg from your reference image into a bmp overlay for CMBN and crop it exactly on your white boundaries. Place it into the z folder.

8. Open the game editor again. What you should see is a 4000m x 400m map, with Rokko's original showing in it's exact place, and blank areas in the areas you extended. Your GE overlay, in those new areas, should show you what to draw in order to fill in the rest of the map.

(You'll still have to do the elevations in the new areas and make sure they mesh well with the original ones.)

So, it's very doable -- but no one said it was easy!

I should of been more specific, i know that any CM map can be expanded to a maximum of 4 x 4 km, what i should of said is, has the map been made in such a way as to allow expansion, while still maintaining the original map in a centralised position, however, after thinking about it, that is unlikely, unless Rocko made the map size 4 x 4 km, then built a 2 x 2 km scenario in the centre, then cropped it down to 2 x 2km, so your advice is a good workaround that i never considered, so thanks for the input.

p.s. I must correct you, i was talking about a 4 x 4 km map, not a 4 x 0.4 km map

[Broadsword56]

I should of been more specific, i know that any CM map can be expanded to a maximum of 4 x 4 km, what i should of said is, has the map been made in such a way as to allow expansion, while still maintaining the original map in a centralised position, however, after thinking about it, that is unlikely, unless Rocko made the map size 4 x 4 km, then built a 2 x 2 km scenario in the centre, then cropped it down to 2 x 2km, so your advice is a good workaround that i never considered, so thanks for the input.

p.s. I must correct you, i was talking about a 4 x 4 km map, not a 4 x 0.4 km map

I just corrected that number in my post. I figured you knew about this technique, Noob, but I wanted to share it "for the folks watching at home."

[Rokko]

I should of been more specific, i know that any CM map can be expanded to a maximum of 4 x 4 km, what i should of said is, has the map been made in such a way as to allow expansion, while still maintaining the original map in a centralised position, however, after thinking about it, that is unlikely, unless Rocko made the map size 4 x 4 km, then built a 2 x 2 km scenario in the centre, then cropped it down to 2 x 2km, so your advice is a good workaround that i never considered, so thanks for the input.

Funny thing is, I actually did that. At least for the Rauray map. With Villons-les-Buissons I'm not so sure, that was more a fun thing to do when I was fed up with drawing squaremiles and squaremiles of different fields.

But the Rauray map has Rauray itself very much in the center, so it would indeed be possible to add about 1km (+/-).

I actually had to remake the big 4x4km map because I did not pay attention to this stupid limitation that you can only add so much space in each direction. I simply started a new map and simply mapped the abbey in (which is far east) and expanded it where I wanted until I noticed that I couldn't expand it far enough.

That almost made me stop working on it entirely.

So now I always pay attention to this issue, and with Rauray I knew that there was very interesting terrain around it as well like Fontenay-le-Pesnel to the north or the Tessel woods or Cheux or Grainville to the East.

[Broadsword56]

Yikes, I had never stopped and thought about there being a limit to how far you can extend a map in a particular direction. What's the limit? I thought you'd be able to extend indefinitely on just one edge long as the total distance on that axis remained 4,000m or less.

Reading this last post with *great* interest, since I'm about to start an operational-tactical campaign in the Fontenay-les-Pesnel -- Tessel woods -- Rauray sector very soon, using CMBN and a company-scale boardgame that does Operation Martlet (then known as Dauntless) over a division-sized area. We'll certainly be able to use some of your mapped areas for the eventual CMBN battles.

[noob]

So now I always pay attention to this issue, and with Rauray I knew that there was very interesting terrain around it as well like Fontenay-le-Pesnel to the north or the Tessel woods or Cheux or Grainville to the East.

I just looked at the PzC scenario map for my operation, and Cheux, Rauray, and Grainville are on it, it's my lucky day

p.s.

Any chance of a couple of screenshots of the Rauray map, a close up and an overhead shot.

[A Canadian Cat]

Yikes, I had never stopped and thought about there being a limit to how far you can extend a map in a particular direction. What's the limit?

The centre of the 320m x320m map you start with is the centre of the maximum 4000m x4000m map you can make. So if you want room for expansion make sure you plan accordingly. I suspect that you will not always want to expand equally in all directions.

Here is an experiment:

I started with a new map and made it all sand. Then I expanded it North and East as far as it would go (that gave me a 2160m x 2160m map):

I also verified that saving the map and reloading it does not allow you to expand and further in the north and east direction. So this arrangement is not just a "while you are editing limit" but a limitation on the way the map itself is structured.

Then I expanded fully in the other directions to get a 4km x 4km map. You cannot see the cursor in this screen shot but I have it positioned in the centre of the sand to show that the centre of the original 320m x 320m map is still the centre of the 4km x 4km map:

I thought you'd be able to extend indefinitely on just one edge long as the total distance on that axis remained 4,000m or less.

This is what I would have expected to - surprise. Without cut copy an paste it is difficult to compensate for this after the fact. So, all map makers should plan accordingly.

[Rokko]

Just made one quick snapshot. You can't see Tessel in it, but there are only some orchards and the roads there yet.

If you wanted to feature Rauray, Cheux and Grainville on one map you would get into some trouble though. Only if Rauray was in the far far West you could hope to get the other two on there as well, and even then only partly.

And due to said limitations you would have to remap it first.

This is really a big issue to me. If not for that I could simply crop 3 km or so from my Cussy-Authie-Buron map and expand it further and further to the north, mapping my whole way to the coast that way (if I wanted to and was crazy enough ).

If you load a new map it has this artificial center spot right in the middle, so you can only expand 2000m from there into every direction. So always make sure that the spot you put in the initial area is also going to be the center of your map later.

[Broadsword56]

The only thing we had that worked around this was the HTML Mapping Tool -- in essence, you built your maps in 400m x 400m sections, and then the tool would automatically draw and place those sections anywhere in the 4km x 4km grid you told it to.

That was a brilliant concept -- But the tool is more or less obsolete now that we have overlays in CMBN 2.0

[Pete Wenman]

Yikes, I had never stopped and thought about there being a limit to how far you can extend a map in a particular direction. What's the limit?

The use of the map overlay should help with this as in most cases the map will have a defined size at the start (to match the overlay)

For all my recent maps I enlarge the map to the required size by alternatively increasing the size on the left, on the right, repeating until the desired size is reached (rinse and repeat for up and down). Doing this will see the map increase equally in size in all four directions, and so leave equal space to expand it if so desired.

Don't forget that using the "shift" key in conjunction with the +/- buttons will incease/decrease the map in 80m chunks rather than the normal 16m

Just in case anyone is interested Rauray is pretty much slap in the middle of my Breaking the Panzers scenario.

P

[noob]

Thanks for the screenshot of the Rauray map, it looks as good as i expected it would, however, i'm not so concerned now about it representing the places it is supposed to, as i will be using it in a different location, specifically, as an approximation of the the villages of Bretteville and Norey, which were the historical objectives of the Canadian 7th Brg on June 7th, and also because the Rauray area is tucked to far into the bottom corner of my operational map to make it a viable terrain objective.

Do you have any idea when this map will be completed ?

[Sublime]

Broadsword -I gotta thank you for mentioning the book An Army at Dawn. Im really enjoying it and the anecdotes about Luftwaffe attacks, and things like Patton sticking live goats into tanks in Morocco to test the new bazookas.

[Rokko]

Just FYI, this project is not dead, I just had to shift some time away from CM during the last month,

a) had to study. A lot.

Rediscovered my passion for Silent Hunter III

Anyways I've continued working on it. Basically it's finished, but I still have to do some detailling which at this level becomes a little boring and repetetive, which is why it took me longer than expected. Things like making sure there are enough wall/bocage openings with fitting groundtiles beneath, or placing enough high grass tiles where appropriate.

[Sublime]

How is SH 3? I never heard much about it- specifically the campaign?

[Rokko]

Well I play a heavily modded version (NYGM super mod, with inofficial .exe fixes and a different GUI) and it's great IMHO. Much better than SH5. The campaign is simple but realistic. You select a start year (or month), a flotilla and a home harbour and then get directed to specific grids in the Atlantic (or in the Mediterranian or Indian Ocean) and patrol there until your torpedoes or fuel run out. You are, free to do what you want though.

[Sublime]

Is the campaign dynamic like later SH's or no? I actually played III now that I recall, I never played 4 and 5 and was curious to how the new dynamic campaign, etc worked. I looked it up after I saw your post and was sad to see it wasn't that well received, though I wonder how much the mods change it.

Ever play Aces of the Deep in the 90s?

[Rokko]

Well the SHV campaign is just outrageously bad and I didn't ever actually play the stock version. Completely unrealistic, you get missions to sink 100.000 BRT in three months to advance and depending how much you sink the campaign appearently progresses differently. The SHIV campaign (which I haven't played in ages and in fact, don't even posses anymore) is more like SHIII, only that you get special missions to rescue pilots or bring spies to Japan or sneak into harbours from time to time.

In III you get an PQ assigned, start in port, go there, sink ships (or not) and return. After that you can give awards to your crew, upgrade your boat (new radar, new guns, snorkels, etc.) and start a new patrol.

To get back to the original topic:

I have made two 30 second clips of me hovering around the map and am trying to upload them to Photobucket right now, but somehow it always seems to fail.

Anyways, I'll post them here once I have succeded

[Rokko]

Oh and yes, I have played AOTD, but I never got warm with it really. I guess people mostly love it because of the nostalgia. I actually got it after SHIII and well, it wasn't for me really. Has a nice printed Kriegsmarine grid map though

[sburke]

Just in case anyone is interested Rauray is pretty much slap in the middle of my Breaking the Panzers scenario.

P

Yeah I am currently working on establishing a German cemetary there with a bit of help from vKleist. It should be called Breaking the Landser. Let's just say I learned a bit of a lesson on reading the briefing and not just the scenario description (it was listed as Allied attack...oops).