Baseless Speculation on the Market-Garden Module

[JonS]

mmmm, I suspect he was referring to this [esp. 3:26]

[Michael Emrys]

I'm not aware of any cases where engineers were able to successfully disarm dems charges while under fire.

Remagen? Not in the MG time span, but...

Michael

[JonS]

Remagen? Not in the MG time span, but...

I thought those charges went off, but not completely?

From wiki:

The responsible bridge officer, Captain Friesenhahn, demanded a requisition of 600 kg of demolition explosives, receiving only 300 kg of "Donarit" explosive at 1100 hours, which was a much weaker industrial explosive used in mining. Friesenhahn tried to use it for a quick blast on the right bank side.

At 1340 hours the main American attack began. The first blast set off by the Germans, who set fire to a portion of the charges, tore a 10-meter-wide crater in the left bank ramp. At 1540 hour, the bridge itself was seemingly blown up by order of Major Scheller, but it remained standing after all. It was lifted up somewhat and then dropped back into place on its foundations, probably because one wire to the explosives had been destroyed.

[Michael Emrys]

That sounds about right, but I think I recall also reading an account of some engineers pulling wires out of charges as they crossed the bridge under fire. Unless I've confused it with another incident.

Michael

[Squeaker]

Not sure if the game does this already, but what about scavenging weapons? Many cases of the encircled Para's at Arnhem using German weapons. It could happen either automatically or with a command that works like Acquire.

Obviously if this is already part of the game mechanic, please ignore the ramblings of this poor, inexperienced newbie.

[nachinus]

Well, the module will have to feature a major overhaul around how bridges work. Placing them on maps, making big and wide ones, and moving units over and under them. Things that currently are quite problematic.

[Holman]

Not sure if the game does this already, but what about scavenging weapons? Many cases of the encircled Para's at Arnhem using German weapons. It could happen either automatically or with a command that works like Acquire.

Obviously if this is already part of the game mechanic, please ignore the ramblings of this poor, inexperienced newbie.

You probably know this, but units in the game will already scavenge good weapons and ammo from dead comrades. A rifle squad that loses its BAR gunner might eventually see another soldier pick up the BAR. A unit that is low on ammo will gather ammo from dead squad mates and other soldiers.

We don't see scavenging of enemy weapons, however, but I think this is good. Even when units did use enemy gear, it probably wasn't "pick up the MG-42 and start firing!" It would be something more like "take that MG-42 and see if you can clean it up, and we'll find a place for it on the line tonight." In other words, actually picking up and using enemy kit is beyond the time scale of a CM scenario.

[YankeeDog]

We don't see scavenging of enemy weapons, however, but I think this is good. Even when units did use enemy gear, it probably wasn't "pick up the MG-42 and start firing!" It would be something more like "take that MG-42 and see if you can clean it up, and we'll find a place for it on the line tonight." In other words, actually picking up and using enemy kit is beyond the time scale of a CM scenario.

Ya. While it was not all that uncommon for infantry units in WWII to receive at least some familiarization and training with enemy weapons, such training was usually pretty rudimentary. And training like this was probably forgotten quickly. Except for a few specific exceptions, units did not practice regularly with enemy weapons. Firearms skill is something that takes regular practice and reinforcement.

Particularly in for more complicated weapons like MGs, I think it's difficult to argue that soldiers would often simply pick up an enemy weapon and start blazing away even if the enemy weapon were in perfect condition and ready to fire. Maybe very rarely an enterprising and intelligent individual might do so (and you can find the occasional anecdote of this happening), but not typically.

Now, given 10-15 minutes down time to fiddle with a weapon like an MG42 and maybe fire a few practice bursts, I think it's much more likely that soldiers in extremis might start using enemy weapons if the ammo for their own weapons started to run out. I suspect that this usually how the British Paras adopted German weapons at Arnhem. But this is largely out of CM's scale as here we are talking about something that would happen between CM scenarios, not during them. However, you could probably argue for some additional units like the inclusion of an ad hoc British Para LMG team armed with an MG42 available in the Arnhem timeframe only. This would give scenario designers the tools to represent this kind of weapon usage.

Simpler enemy weapons like bolt-action rifles and to a lesser extent SMGs would probably be easier to pick up and use right away. But the actual in-game effect of soldiers trading SMLEs for k98s, or Stens for MP40s would be very minor and probably not worth the coding time.

There is one specific exception where scrounging enemy equipment should, ideally, be represented, and this is with 9mm ammo. MP40 and the Sten use exactly the same round, and IIRC the Sten was actually designed so that it could even use the MP40's magazine. British Paras would almost certainly be aware of this, so British Sten gunners low on ammo ideally should be able to scrounge MP40 clips and use them right away in their Sten.

[Michael Emrys]

There is one thing to keep in mind re the MG34-42, and that is that cutting loose with one would probably get you shot at by every friendly(?) soldier in range. Those weapons had a very distinctive sound that made the fur rise among Allied troops. You would want to make very clear first whose side you were on, and even then you might not be safe.

Michael

[LongLeftFlank]

I agree 100%: ad hoc Sergeant Rock behaviour with enemy weapons is an EXTREME outlier for reasons cited above, but would be instantly abused by various gamey bastiges. Go play a shooter if you want to do that kind of thing.

Regarding the OP, my own expectation is that we finally get the tools needed to represent late war urban combat: e.g. flat roofed / industrial buildings and warehouses (oversized barns with thicker walls), low walls topped with railings (i.e. you can shoot through them but not readily cross. Perhaps also townhouses with entrances half a level up (those stairways themselves provide cover). Maybe some distinctly urban flavour objects, like rail cars or derelict motor cars.

And that also has GOT to mean fires and flamethrowers. There's only so long you can put this off.

Remember, this module content will be focused on Market Garden, but should also touch upon or at least enable the savage battles for Brest, Paris, the Channel Ports (e.g. le Havre), Metz and Aachen. BFC and the bulk of the game's audience are (IMHO) tank-vs-tank-shootout biased but there's only so much truly novel to add in that area in fall 1944, beyond some later model vehicles and those Panzer Brigades JasonC is so fond of bashing.

[Sublime]

Id be inclined to agree. The same reason soldiers were heavily discouraged to take AKs in Vietnam, the distinctive noise would draw fire and get you killed.

Plus the only weapon I heard commonly used by Allies that was German was Panzerfausts. And even then I wouldnt go so far to say it was necesarilly common. But I have heard a lot instances of US troops using them, not just one or two. Otherwise, I have heard of widespread use of captured equipment on the Ost Front...

edit:

Id also like to add it'd be nice to fortify buildings somehow. and for foxholes, etc overhead cover and stuff would be a welcome addition of course..

[Holman]

Regarding the OP, my own expectation is that we finally get the tools needed to represent late war urban combat: e.g. flat roofed / industrial buildings and warehouses (oversized barns with thicker walls), low walls topped with railings (i.e. you can shoot through them but not readily cross. Perhaps also townhouses with entrances half a level up (those stairways themselves provide cover). Maybe some distinctly urban flavour objects, like rail cars or derelict motor cars.

I entirely agree. I hope that we'll see a greater variety of urban buildings and doodads.

And that also has GOT to mean fires and flamethrowers. There's only so long you can put this off.

I really hope this is coming, but I'd be surprised if we see spreading fires in the next module. It seems like something for a whole new version of the engine (probably Eastern Front).

I'd settle for static fires first (i.e. flamethrowers and burning buildings, but not spreading fire if that's too hard to add). Better modelling of engineers vs. obstacles is also needed now.

[Quintus Sertorius]

Operational control over Market-Garden.

[Holman]

Operational control over Market-Garden.

You mean like not starting up the game?

[Sublime]

gotta admit that.d make it fantastic.. just like with the Bulge. I have to admit Im not too excited about the setting of the Bulge game. Ill take it of course but I wanna see the Ost Front, however if you get operational control, so platoon x holding against all odds affects the German advance.. well the Bulge gets way more interesting suddenly.

[Michael Emrys]

Remember, this module content will be focused on Market Garden, but should also touch upon or at least enable the savage battles for Brest, Paris, the Channel Ports (e.g. le Havre), Metz and Aachen.

A small quibble to a post I otherwise agree with: the liberation of Paris can hardly be said to have involved "savage" fighting. It mostly involved lightly armed police and civilians having shootouts with parts of the garrison forces. The German commander of the garrison was trying his best to prevent such confrontations. The forces outside the city, mainly the French 2nd. Armored Division, held off entering until the coast was clear and the Germans had for the most part withdrawn.

Michael

[LongLeftFlank]

Agreed, although one of my favourite all-time CMBO scenarios was also one of the first I played -- the shootout in les Tuileries. And that one is a fairly sharp fight.

Also, has BFC ever indicated that Free French forces will be in the OMG module? 'Cuz I'd definitely love to get French voices (and forces) for my other project....

[Michael Emrys]

Most likely FF Forces would have the same TO&E as the Americans. Some slight differences in uniforms (kepis for the officers).

Michael

[womble]

gotta admit that.d make it fantastic.. just like with the Bulge. I have to admit Im not too excited about the setting of the Bulge game. Ill take it of course but I wanna see the Ost Front, however if you get operational control, so platoon x holding against all odds affects the German advance.. well the Bulge gets way more interesting suddenly.

The trouble with operational control is that it (if it's being done right) leads to a whole bunch of boring CM:[tactical level] actions as your/their applied overwhelming force steamrollers whatever weak point it has been thrown at, while the rest of the line avoids combat at unfavourable odds. Most of the time "platoon x" won't "hold against all odds" (that's why the odds are all against them) and you'll just have a one-sided battle. Of course, you can have a sidestep way of abstractly resolving some/most encounters, but then you'll never see platoon x when they do beat the odds.

[Sublime]

Which is true of course. I still wish they could do something like this. You.d still have QBs and regular scenarios for people. And the campaign like you said could have an auto resolve or sum-such. That way if you wanted to, you could fight it out. Even then I foresee problems, just like in the Total War series I could ususally take platoon x out against an overwhelming force and pwn them which would never have happened against a human opponent. Then you have the added complexity of programming the AI for operational level =/

Still it's nice to dream. Especially if they added the function for H2H play =D

[jakla1027]

"

Vehicles:

King Tiger (Henschel turret)

Slightly later Shermans

Are there later British tanks to worry about?

In any case, I don't think this is going to be a big vehicle module."

Hoping for lots of AFV's, this is my guess based on the next module hopefully covering Sep. 44 thru Nov. 44

Thus here is pure baseless spec here,

Vehicles:

Hetzer

Jagdtiger (not sure when they entered service on the Western Front perhaps 1945)

Archer

Hellcat

M36 Jackson

M4A3E8 "Easy Eight"

M4A3E2 "Jumbo Sherman" (somewhat rare)

M24 Chaffee (very very rare kinda like Tigers in CMFI)

M16 MGMC (just in the direct ground fire mode, no anti-aircraft role)

Also just my worthless two cents here,

I for starters don't see any anti-aircraft features being brought in, that would most likely be in a new base game....

Now along the aircraft guidelines,

I could see the cost of German air support assets steeply rising in price (QB missions...) in the later months of the module, mainly because the Allies had such massive air superiority & their wasn't the well trained pilots, planes, fuel, to be found in the German Air force to warrant close air support.

Well that's some baseless speculating, cant wait to find out the details from BF.

[Sgt Schultz]

My personal wish-list of reasonable requests... Not for MG, but soon™

1. In-place Bailey/pontoon Bridges. Not in the scope of the game to deploy bridging units, but a lot of crossings had temporary bridges sitting next to destroyed ones. I want those to set up my maps in a more immersive fashion.

Much easier to shell into oblivion as well.

2. Assault boats, even if they are still stuck in gamey code-land. We have been dealing with wonky bridge code for 10 years, so bring back my boats please.

3. Less of some flavour objects and more of others. Railroad cars, burned out autos, downed gliders, even bloated livestock carcasses all come to mind as better choices than 6 types of pole.

4. Abstracted yet functional AAA. Whirblewind is coming and I want to shoot at its intended targets.

5. They said no fire, and so I do not ask for it.

6. AMMO CRATES! Under Fortifications, extra heavy support weapon ammo in boxes. Placed in fortifications or vehicles ONLY and take up personnel slots(say 4) in doing so. Priced according to type and number of rounds per crate. 150mm German IG round is largest possible so 4 per crate for let's say 15 points, and then do the math from there downwards by calibre.

7. Ammo use by BEARERS FIRST. Obvious obvious obvious.

8. QB Bearers get ammo in the first place instead of coming out clean as buddy aide-ing serfs.

9. Adjustable HE/Smoke ratios for off-map assets in design screen.

---------

I will still buy and be happy if none of these come to pass, but I feel they would be improvements.

[Wodin]

"6. AMMO CRATES! Under Fortifications, extra heavy support weapon ammo in boxes. Placed in fortifications or vehicles ONLY and take up personnel slots(say 4) in doing so. Priced according to type and number of rounds per crate. 150mm German IG round is largest possible so 4 per crate for let's say 15 points, and then do the math from there downwards by calibre."

With the chance a direct hit could set them off...can you imagine that..first of your rig would drop to 1FPS..buf finally once it's dies down..most of the map is obliterated. Actually that would be nerve racking if you where winning but the enemy had zeroed in on your ammo dump trying to take you out with him..

My wish list consists of a few things for the future..but I know wont be in MG or Bulge module..

1. Fire\Flames (Obvious one)

2. Formations (really want my squads to go into at least line formation when sweeping forward, but as many formations as possible would be superb).

3. More varied animations..not many and I know it's only chrome..more death animations..also blood..maybe dismemberment..yes I'm sick..dismemberment isn't really needed though, blood will do.

4. More Flavour Objects

5. Horses (cavalry anyone..would be hard to model though I'm sure)

6. Motorbikes (The obvious German recon units, riding lovely BMW's)

7. Bicycle units

8 Assualt Boats\Landing Craft

9. Sewers (not sure how this could be done though)

10. Cellars

11. CM East front.

[sigop22]

If the game goes to the bulge with the OMG module as well, will weather start taking a more physical tolls on troops? Running through hard packed or soft snow while carrying 50+ pounds of gears is a very physical task. Especially if its a start-stop-start-stop affair in the cold. I've had to do something similar myself in the army, and even though I wasn't on a two way range it was still physically demanding.

I'd like to see flame weapons come back for OMG and fall operations as well. My dream missions right now would be the 2nd Can Div clearing the Scheldt with flame wasps and doing amphibious landings on Alligators and motor boats along the estuary.

Camoflauge as well. I'd like to start seeing hard dug in fixed positions with heavy camoflauge and cover. Abstract camoflauge is abstract, and it's frustrating to put an AT gun or unit in a fixed spot and watch it get spotted before it spots anyone else because the abstracted camoflauge system said it wasn't close enough to a bush to be camoed. Something like this:

Concealed AT Gun:

http://wwii.ca/photos/scheldt/beveland_1.jpg

Bunkers are nice, but even on normal AT guns and positions where someones been sitting there for more than forty minutes. In my military experience, basic camo only takes a few minutes to do. If you have three guys digging a hole for an MG, at least one of them can be grabbing bush and sticks to try and conceal it.

War isn't easy when on the attacking side. With heavier camoflauge I can see a much tougher game coming out of a smaller force as opposed to tipping the scales on the defender so that it's more "fair".

[Holman]

If the game goes to the bulge with the OMG module as well, will weather start taking a more physical tolls on troops? Running through hard packed or soft snow while carrying 50+ pounds of gears is a very physical task. Especially if its a start-stop-start-stop affair in the cold. I've had to do something similar myself in the army, and even though I wasn't on a two way range it was still physically demanding.

The OMG module takes CMBN up to the end of autumn. Snow conditions and terrain will be a feature of the next game (not module) in the series (just as CMFI is a separate game). Presumably modules for that new game will carry the war all the way to the end.