Scenario: KG Himmelfahrt

[Erwin]

***SPOILERS***

Up to the 1hr 30mins point (2hr 30min to go).

In the last 5 or so minutes the US arty has started to find my guys both in the central town and on the east edge town. CF'd to find that German casualties zoomed up from about 2% to close to 10% (about 50 WIA+KIA) even with troops "safe" in buildings. (Would have been a lot worse had they been caught outside.) US casualties are closer to 20%.

Playing in RT one could get everyone to hide and move vehicles out of the way as soon as the first spotting rounds appear. But, in WEGO one is helpless for a minute, which is part of the reason for the higher casualties.

Used German arty to kill two M10's on the ridge to the right (west), but it's been harder to kill the 2nd two in the same way. (And I think there is at least one ATG in a trench up there as well.) How does one kill TD's that are at long range? Without CM1-like penetration tables I have little idea if I can go hull-down with my Tigers and kill the TD's that way, or if that's a suicidal idea. Hence the heavy reliance on my 120mm mortars vs the TD's. (I found that 81mm just doesn't have the bang required.)

Nonetheless, the central town is almost completely occupied by my two lead platoons from Co 2. I don't think there are any US troops left in it. And there is an entire fresh reserve platoon in Co 2. The Tigers have not been useful so far and can't move out much so long as the TD's overlook the area. The US arty is damaging some of the vehicles' tracks so need to pull em back to keep the delicate kitties safe.

The left (east edge) town attack by 2 platoons of Co 1 is moving along, but a sudden arty barrage did do some damage and kept the troops hunkered down in the buildings. They're unable to move until it's absolutely certain that the barrage is over - which often takes at least one and maybe 2 entire WEGO turns.

Also, the 3rd reserve platoon which is moving in the woods to flank the long skinny town has found an enemy ambush position astride the "trail thru the woods". I have to decide whether to commit the 3rd platoon to that, or use the fresh 3rd company that is sitting around in its halftracks to clear the woods and join up with Co 1. Am thinking to keep Co 1 attacking the east edge town, and use the fresh 3rd Co to clear the woods. (Or, should I bring the largely ok Co2 in from the central town? They can't go anywhere else until the west heights are cleared, and I don't want em sitting in town buildings under arty barrage for the next hour.)

One unfortunate issue is that the offboard 81mm mortars that only have range about halfway thru the map are still full of ammo since I advanced too fast to use it while they were in range. I used the half the ammo of the rocket barrage on the central town, and most of the 170mm on the east edge town. There seemed no reason to use the 81mm, but now it's unusable.

These sort of decisions all over the place makes this a really fun scenario. One essentially has 2 almost completely unrelated battles going on (on the east edge town, and the central town). And one has plenty of reserves to commit. If I am to join Co 1 with its vehicles, the trail through the woods has to be cleared which will make for a third simultaneous battle. Some really interesting decisions. Great stuff.

[sburke]

Hey Pandur, I am only 2/3 of the distance Erwin has gone and I don't want to give details to avoid spoilers, but as I'd noted earlier I had taken a bloody nose on my two main axis of advance. 1st Company took some time regrouping and had to wait for their company mortars to suppress the Americans they are facing then drop smoke. They just launched a rush to dislodge the reinforced American Infantry platoon I think they are facing. Meanwhile 2nd Company is closing in on clearing Kommerscheidt while the artillery is softening up American defenses further toward Schmidt.

So far it has been very good. Defenses are well positioned with covering support etc. I now have to decide how to deploy 3rd Company as they are the primary for the advance into Schmidt and there is a LOT of open ground.

Couldn't help but add this. Sometimes this game just leaves me in awe. actually it happens quite a bit.

Schmidt under fire from Nebelwerfer battery.

1st Company's rush

[Erwin]

***SPOILERS***

Am wondering if there are multiple defense set-ups as unlike sburke, my Co 1 didn't encounter any opposition whatsoever until already in the northernmost buildings of Froitscheidt.

(Or, perhaps you went further north thru the trees hoping to turn east and attack Froitscheidt at its center (where the path thru the woods is)? Co 1's reserve platoon advancing S through the woods to flank Froitscheidt stumbled into US units in foxholes in that area. I decided to back away and focus on the town buildings. I will leave the US troops guarding the road for reinforcing units from one of the other companies. Maybe bring a platoon of Co 1 into action at that time, so the US are surrounded in the woods.)

I am at about 2hr 19min on the clock (to go). Kommerscheidt is cleared. The way the VL's look I thought we get 250 points per section of Kommerscheidt. But, you have to own both to get 250 points.

Co 2 has been trying to kill the US units that were position or retreated into the wheatfields north of the SE VL section of the town. These US units in the open (including some 60mm mortars) have proven a lot harder to kill than the US units that were in the buildings. Odd. (Am worried that maybe I shouldn't be doing this as inevitably my inf are getting light wounds even if not serious or KIA. Can't use armor here as I think there are TD's and ATG's with LOS to this area. Maybe I should be using my 81mm mortars to finish em off safely.)

Overall, US arty is either atrociously inaccurate, barraging areas of the woods where troops were maybe 30 minutes ago, or where they never were in the first place, or scarily on target - so maybe there are some US TRP's.

Nearly all my troops are in buildings so no serious casualties from being caught in the open as yet. But, there is attrition... one guy here and there when a blast is close to an occupied building. HIDING the troops seems to mitigate this. However, in WEGO it's sometimes impossible to do that unless a spotting round arrives at least minute before FFE. US arty seem to be a mixture of 60mm and 81mm(?) mortars and also some much heavier stuff.

Finding a use for the Tigers (and Stugs) has been difficult so far. Lost one Stug to a flank ATG shot from the west hill. Arty landing around them damages the tracks. An ATG firing at the front of a Tiger's turret causes damage. Only one Tiger is completely unscratched. The other 3 have light damage to track, optics, radio etc. So, have pulled them and the 3 surving Stugs back. I think I will have to use em all as assault guns to blast inf out of buildings as the only US armor I have seen are M10 TD's (on the hill to the west) and I don't want to duel with them. Am hoping to kill em with arty, along with two 76mm ATG's that have been spotted in trenches up there.

My dilemma is whether to send either elements of the fresh Co 3, or the fresh Co 2 reserve platoon, east to help Co 1 deal with the US inf blocking the woods path east to Froitscheidt. That way Froitscheidt can be cleared more easily. The woods east to Froitscheidt appear impassible to vehicles, so one must use the path. But, I can't send vehicles through the woods path with ammo resupply until the TD's and ATG's on the west hill are dealt with as I suspect they have LOS to the entryway to that path. (Or, maybe use smoke to hide vehicles attempting to reach the path entrance.)

I also have to decide whether to commit to attacking and capturing the buildings and hill to the west and entering Schmidt from the west, or push everything through the woods and Froitscheidt and enter Schmidt from the east.

The third option is to use arty to destroy or blind with smoke the units on the hill to the west and advance directly south to Schmidt across the fields. A 76mm ATG was spotted directly in the way near Schmidt, but I think my arty has KO'd it. But, a halftrack scout went up in flamnes thanks to a 57mm ATG in the woods to the south as well. So, maybe even more ATG's around.

Decision, decisions, decisions - this is why I think this a terrific scenario.

[sburke]

Interesting discussion of using fords. I am very cautious about using fords. They pose a risk. If there is a bridge and a ford that can serve the same purpose I will use the bridge and ignore the ford - every time.

I am a ford user when opportunity arises. They can be great to allow forces to attack from unexpected directions. But they are not without risk. The chances of loosing vehicles to bogging are much higher in a ford. So if the risk is worth it I'll use the ford.

In this case where a ford and a bridge offer the same or similar crossing I would not put a single vehicle in the ford. Why risk it?

I wanted to come back to this once I had gotten further into the scenario. I suspect Erwin's experience is similar to mine. After moving an entire PzGr battalion (tracked) plus a few other vehicles (StuG's, Marders, Tigers etc) I did not have a single vehicle bog or even threaten to bog. I am not sure if the issue with a ford tends to be the terrain at entry and exit or conditions set in the data parameters of a scenario, but in this particular case bogging did not appear to be a problem.

[A Canadian Cat]

I wanted to come back to this once I had gotten further into the scenario. I suspect Erwin's experience is similar to mine. After moving an entire PzGr battalion (tracked) plus a few other vehicles (StuG's, Marders, Tigers etc) I did not have a single vehicle bog or even threaten to bog. I am not sure if the issue with a ford tends to be the terrain at entry and exit or conditions set in the data parameters of a scenario, but in this particular case bogging did not appear to be a problem.

Interesting information. You are probably on to something regarding the terrain conditions on entry and exit. Mud is the worst for bogging.

[Erwin]

Yes, there are far worse bogging terrains that could exist. We were originally discussing how hard/time-consuming it is to get the 90+ vehicles in this scenario across the river when there is no opposition and therefore no point to it other than traffic management challenges, so why not just start all the units already across the river (or have the river crossable for a few dozen meters at the ford so you can quickly get eveyone across without vast numbers of waypoints with varying delays or a huge pile up).

[Erwin]

*** SPOILERS **

Just past the halfway point at 1hr 58 mins to go in this scenario. On the east flank Co 1 is halfway thru the long skinny village of Froitscheidt heading south. Ammo is still ok, but some units are getting low (a magazine or two) of 9mm. Casualties are not too bad. Average maybe 10-15% casualties.

One platoon has lost its HQ. Not sure if the Co 1 HQ can command them as I have never quite understood the C2 system of CM2.

In the woods to its west, another Co 1 platoon is making slow and careful progress to clear out the US ambushers who sit astride the path thru the woods and the only way Co 1's vehicles can get to them with resupply.

To their west a Stug has made it to the woods/path edge and caused some US casualties. But, not before something KO'd two halftracks. I didn't see or hear any bazooka whoosh, so am wondering if it's a 50 cal someplace. (Can a US MMG or rifles KO a halftrack??)

Going west again to the open area of the map, the two recon vehiles incl a Puam a brave crew reoccupied after abandonment have been KO'd by arriving US M4's in Schmidt town. 3 M4/75's and a 76 were spotted. Maybe another one that can't see seen. I brought up my 100% Tiger as I thought the long range etc vs an M4 would be to my advantage. But, while he missed twice, the M4 hit twice disabling the Tiger's main gun!! (Man, that has happened too much in my CM games.) So, now that it is merely a movable MG bunker, it is being sent to be in front of the aforementioned Stug as it attempts to force the path thru the woods. Am taking vehicles on MOVE thru the woods edge to avoid fire from Schmidt, but it's very slow going in the dense woods.

Kommerscheidt is completely occupied and the 2nd Co Pltoon with no HQ is currently guarding it vs any counterattack. Am resupplying them, as I will probably have to use the men elsewhere. One of the halftracks got KO'd by ATG's that I see in spur out of the main woods, and also in a trench near Schmidt. (I thought I had killed everything in that damn trench with 170mm ages ago!)

Co 2's HMG's are in the buildings the the west of town fing at a crescent of buildings containing US ever further west. US arty falls every now and then, and I have kept all the inf in buildings, HIDE when needed. Even so, the Co HQ, my single very valuable FO and a couple of the HMG's have taken casualties. For a scenario this size I really miss not having more than one FO as he calls arty significantly faster and more accurately than a regular HQ.

Finally KO'd two M10's and two 76mm ATG's in trenches. But the other HQ's used a lot of ammo in the process. Am out of 170mm, and only a couple dozen rounds of 120mm left. Still have 60 rounds of nebelwerfer amo, and about the same of 105mm. Co 1 still has 40-50 rounds of 81mm. Co 3 was low at 18 rounds. I sent Co 1's mortar halftrack with its 14 rounds over the Co 3 mortars...

This was interesting. Despite not having the same HQ at all, as soon as Co 1's mortar halftrack got to Co 3 mortsrs they IMMEDIATELY showed the extra 14 rounds as available. Next turn, I found the mere action of making a waypoint for the halftrack away from the mortars was enough to reduce the ammo by 14. When I canceled the waypoint, the mortar shells available immediately rose by 14 again. So, this seems to contradict the ammo sharing rule that units must have the same immediate HQ.

I tried to get my 3 previously damaged Tigers into a keyhole position to KO one of the newly arrived M4's. Once again it hit the front of one Tiger, damaging it some more, before the Tiger finally landed two or three shots and KO'd it. You'd think one hit would be enough. But, now I fear the US tanks and am sending them through a valley in the west with the reserve platoon from Co 2 so I can attack the buildings at the west edge, use them for cover, and come down into Schmidt from the west hill.

That will be all I can do till I get back to town in a few weeks...

[LongLeftFlank]

By the way, I'm sure the Himmelfahrts are an ancient Junker family and pillars of Brandenburg society, etc. But I can just imagine a "Life of Brian" type sequence at HQ, with General Kluge quizzing his guards "Und VOTS so funny about Oberst HIMMELFAHRT? ....He has a vife you know.... Her family name ist von KRAPPE!"

[sburke]

So without going into too many details i.e. spoilers - 1st Company has overcome it's opposition taking a few prisoners and killing/capturing or driving off all remaining opposition and their support vehicles are now pouring through to assist in seizing Froitscheidt. 2nd Company is in full control of Kommerscheidt and 3rd Company along with the Tigers is driving on towards the overwatch position in preparation for the full assault on Schmidt. One of my Tigers just took out an M10 (strange little incident where the Tiger almost bogged and while attempting to unbog spotted the M10 and killed it before the M10 could react). I have artillery about to hit the remaining M10s and will then move to sieze the high ground.

Casualties have not been too bad but it has taken some work to drive the Americans from their positions. 1st Company in particular has had it's hands full but seems to have achieved a critical turning point in terms of fire superiority now that it's support vehicles are able to lend a hand.

I have really enjoyed the scenario so far Pandur. Good show.

[Erwin]

Would be interested in the times it took to accomplish your goals. It sounds like you are doing well with Co 1 to eliminate opposition on the woods trail.

[sburke]

Would be interested in the times it took to accomplish your goals. It sounds like you are doing well with Co 1 to eliminate opposition on the woods trail.

I don't want to reveal too much to any who haven't played, I'll send you a more detailed synopsis via PM. However as vKleist has heard me say often enough - I hate fighting in woods.

[Erwin]

I think/assume that if we put ***SPOILERS*** in post headings that should warn off folks who don't want to be forewarned.

It would probably be very interesting to others (certainly to me) to read about the difference in our strategy and approach. The great thing about a large scenario like this is that there are so many important decisions to make - and still to make - even at the halfway point. Large numbers of interesting tactical and strategic decisions as to how to accomplish the mission(s) are what make for an xnt game, and KG Himmelfahrt provides those challenges to players in spades.

FYI: I average about 1 hour to make orders for one game minute, so if this keeps up it will take about 240 hours to complete. However, I suspect things will accelerate as units are KIA and removed. Originally, I am pretty sure it took 4 minutes to load. However, strangely this has been reduced for at least the last hour of game time to around 2.5 minutes - which is pretty good since one has 3 fully mechanized companies plus over a dozen Stummels and other support vehicles and a company equivalent of armor. Takes about 40 seconds to save the scenario.

My system was one level below state of the art when it was built 4 years ago, so today it's pretty average.

[sburke]

LOL Couldn't resist

Well it is slow going - a personal time factor not the scenario I am 1:36 into the game LOTS of time to go.

So in repsonse to Erwin's suggestion I am gonna do major spoiler here. If you have not played the scenario I would avoid this post

Okay you were warned

First off my commander looked at Division's suggestions, furled his brow, balled up the offending document and tossed it under his command track.

First company was ordered to trail some of the recon vehicles and skirt below the crest of the hill around toward the woods trail to Froitscheidt. He wanted the heavy weapons on the tracks close by to support first coy. These were PzGr, not those slogging infantry crawling along behind their wagons.

So the plan was 1st Coy to move through covered terrain and thrust along the trail towards Froitscheidt. 2nd Coy meanwhile would take Kommerscheidt. 3rd Coy would be held back for the assualt on Schmidt.

1st Company

Well so far the plan has gone well. 1st Coy took a few losses scouting the trail and encountered a dug in reinforced American Infantry platoon covering the clearing the trail crossed. After battering the Americans with artillery and then a little recon by fire that further suppressed them, the company mortars dropped smoke and the entire company rushed across the clearing. They took a few casualties but completely routed the American platoon capturing a few.

The tracked vehicles then slowly made their way down the trail (we lost a couple vehicles to enemy recon and AT fire but the bulk of the company made it with little trouble). As it stands now the Company with the support of the tracked heavy weapons is smashing their way right into the middle of the American defense at Froitschiedt. American casualties are high and we have every expectation or achieving our objectives within an hour at most. 1st Company will then move around to flank Schmidt.

2nd Company

breaking the initial defenses at Kommerscheidt was a bit difficult as hidden AT guns nailed 2 StuGs and a recon vehicle as we attempted to drive the American infantry from their defenses. There appears to have been about 2 platoons in Kommerscheidt. Both have been driven off with heavy losses and while 2nd Company did take some casualties, over all it is still very capable of offensive action.

3rd Company.

During the fight for Kommerscheidt an American M10 platoon pulled up on the dominant hill in the area. We proceeded to shell the heck out of them hoping for whatever damage we could inflict. It didn't seem like much but did apparently cause them to have issues with their overall battle awareness. Their first casualty was to a Tiger that had started to bog while moving to a covered approach position. That vehicle was the only one with any possibility of slowing our next move. The Tiger and Marder platoons moved to the right of Kommerscheidt just beyond the minefield to a position where they could not be observed while they prepared for the next phase. 3rd company came following on their heels. All 8 armored vehicles moved up the slope just below the crest and then as one unit crested the hill on the flank of the American Tank destroyers. They never had a chance. All 3 TDs died in moments to volleys of 88 and 75 MM gun fire.

Next phase is to consolidate our position on the high ground, eliminate the American infantry between Kommerscheidt and this position. Spot for additional enemy AT guns (at least one 76mm gun was spotted). 1st Company will continue to clear Froitscheidt while 2nd Company will prepare to join the attack on Schmidt with 3rd Company. With the high ground now under our control it should be only a matter of time before the Americans are driven from Schmidt.

Okay spoiler over. This battle has been interesting so far. Actually very interesting, but it has also made me think a bit more about how much I really enjoy large engagements versus how much I think I enjoy them. This is not a critique of this scenario. It has been a lot of fun so far. period.

However the battle for the trail crossing in and of itself was so much fun it could easily have been a scenario of it's own and considering how divorced it is from the main battle it really is a stand alone fight. There isn't a real connection between it and the main battle unless they do drive around to take Schmidt from the opposite flank. The same could be said for the fight at Kommerscheidt. I love catching all the detail so essentially I am watching 3 different battles and reviewing each one before I give them orders. It takes some real discipline especially when you get caught up in a forest fight in the dark to remember to go check the other battles before you end the turn to issue orders.

vKleist and I are fighting a similar battle in CW the Mace and I suspect we are both kind of feeling the same way. Fighting battles that are so widely separated that they are not mutually supportive is basically.. well like fighting two scenarios at once. It isn't that they aren't interesting, it is just that you start to feel a little schizophrenic or like one of those guys who plays multiple simultaneous chess games.

[ridethe415]

I downloaded the file but cannot get it to load. CMBN quits during the loading page. Any ideas? I have the latest patch (v1.10) and this isn't a CMCW battle is it?

thanks

[ridethe415]

Got it to work. Awesome battle. I love having time for recon, deploying etc. 20 minutes in.

[sburke]

Finally hit the 2:00 mark. Froitscheidt is just about occupied. There is a small cluster of buildings remaining I am slowly reconning as I expect units further in the American rear may have LOS into this area.

The plateau has been over run with the latest victims being the American 81mm mtr units.

Somehow an American 57mm at gun survived an earlier barrage so it is now being targeted. The Sherman platoon has arrived and is sitting guarding Schmidt however the greatest threat to it is slowly moving towards it's rear as the Tigers and Marders continue to drive what little resistance remains back into Schmidt off the plateau. I believe all the known 76mm AT guns positions have been eliminated.

Next phase.

First company to complete the occupation of Froitscheidt and prepare to threaten the flank of Schmidt. 3rd Company to prepare for assault into Schmidt directed toward Cathedral. 2nd Company to remain in Kommerscheidt until Sherman threat is eliminated.

170 and 150 mm Artillery fire expected on Schmidt to begin in 13 and 9 minutes respectively.

[ridethe415]

How are your casualties?

I am an hour in and between my over zealousness and Ami Arty...I've taken more than I'd like. I'm in Kommersheidt and trying to clean up Froitscheidt's northern end.

[sburke]

How are your casualties?

I am an hour in and between my over zealousness and Ami Arty...I've taken more than I'd like. I'm in Kommersheidt and trying to clean up Froitscheidt's northern end.

Higher than I'd like, but not catastrophic. Kommerscheidt so far was the hardest. The Americans have good overwatch and some depth to the position. Once you crack that however your options widen. There are a lot of heavy AT assets out there so watch yourself and the artillery will keep on coming. Just keep your guys out of sight and undercover once you have driven the Americans from Kommerscheidt as it will continue to act as an artillery magnet.

[sburke]

1:40 to go. Froitscheidt has been cleared (those Stummel do an excellent job of encouraging American infantry to vacate buildings or surrender )

The Tigers have beeen looking for angles to fire into Schmidt at the Shermans. The 76mm is dead while a 75 mm unit was sent scurrying in a hail of smoke dispensers. Couple pioneer units have been beat up and an FO team taken out.. and just as the Germans are feeling the vise is beginning to close on the Americans we hear that all too familiar sound...Jabos!!!!

My units are scattering for cover or at least distance from one another. The best option would be to get close to the American positions, but I am not about to just dive into Schmidt when there are 4 Shermans roaming and more than likely an Infantry company and attached assets of an Infantry Bn.

[sburke]

1:30 to go

Ever since watching JonS and Elvis go at it in their AAR of Bois de Baugin I have looked for an opportunity to use a breach team similar to how the villa was breached in that game.

Well today I got my chance. As the Germans moved into the Chuch they got into a firefight with an American FO team in the steeple as well as some infantry teams scattered throughout the nearby buildings. One German team got hit particularly hard so I sent a breach team and a regular team to blast through a wall into an adjacent building to eliminate some of the opposition. Well the breach team blew the wall and the first guy that charges in is armed with the MP and proceeds to eliminate most of the American team in the room singlehandedly. Awesome!! Then the breach team proceeds to open up at the other team from that American squad across the street and drives the now flustered remnant of that squad out the back. Outstanding!! as that now clears the street in front of American Infantry and it is time for the Tigers to go on the prowl. 2 proceed to enter the streets around the Church and over the next two minutes they completely destroy the American Sherman platoon. One Tiger takes track damage, but while slow it is still mobile. At the end of this 10 minutes the American force defending Schmidt has lost all it's armor support and control of a critical sector of the town.

Next phase is to start consolidating 3rd Company to push into the adjoining buildings. 1st Company is also reorganizing for a trek through the woods to eliminate a pesky American 57mm ATG. Once that is complete 2nd Company will move forward to join 3rd Company and 1st Company for the final assault on Schmidt.

Meanwhile American artillery continues to look for targets and nails one of 1st Company's Stummel with a stray spotting round.

The American Jabo flight accomplished not much more then shooting up an empty field. I am feeling particularly lucky about that one. Not sure who called it in but I suspect there is an American observation position with eyes on Froitscheidt as it seems to be getting all the attention now.

[sburke]

Well the 1:30 mark seem to be the critical turning point. The American defenses are collapsing. Rather than wait on 1st Company's outback track I sent a Tiger to eliminate the pesky 57 mm ATG. With that gone 1st and 2nd Companies are preparing to move en masse on Schmidt. Meanwhile 3rd Company backed up by two Tigers cut right through the center of town splitting the American defenses. Another Tiger along with a Stummel is squeezing the American positions leading up to the plateau and the StuGs along with another Hummel are eliminating the last holdouts in the buildings betwen Kommerscheidt and Schmidt.

Unless the Americans get reinforced heavily soon it is just a matter of time before the AI surrenders. With all 4 Tigers turning their attention to the Schmidt defenses backed up by a half dozen Stummel, the StuGs and 4 Marders, as soon as an American position reveals itself it is immediately silenced.

[sburke]

1:04 left and the Americans surrender. Had another breaching team blast a wall to take out the remanants of A Co. HQ and watched a lone GI fire off a bazooka and take out 3 guys from 3rd Co while the rest of the GIs platoon was annihilated in a cross fire in Schmidt. The AI is pretty darn stubborn at times.

Nice one Pandur. At the end my armor advantage was overwhelming but the GIs were still managing to take out some of my guys all the way into the last turn. One Tiger was eventually immobilized but was still sitting as a heavy duty pillbox in a good position. The Tigers and Stummel caused most of the American casualties - The immobilized Tiger had taken out 3 Shermans, an M10, 46 GIs and a scattering of soft vehicles. One thing that was interesting is US Heavy MG teams would routinely open fire on buttoned up Tigers. Bad idea but I believe that is what eventually caused that Tiger's immobility.

I would consider having additional Shermans join the battle late, maybe 2 platoons with one coming in from each corner of the allied side sometime around the 2:00 mark if you really want to challenge the Germans. They would have potentially caused some chaos for 3rd Company and 1st Company would have been preoccupied with those for a bit.

For those wondering what the Americans secured in their objectives - that is a bonus to keep the US in the game from a victory point total.

[Erwin]

That looks like a good result sburke... altho still about 25% German casualties.

I hope that if the designer makes any improvements to the scenario, that the length of 4 hours is not changed. One of the most fun challenges is how to accomplish the objectives with fewer friendly casualties. I often find that impatience is the most deadly enemy. It's good to have a scenario that really does provide enuff time to be more careful.

Congrats for finishing before me btw. Am looking forward to getting back to this when I get home next week.

I hope other players try this scenario out as it's amongst my favorites - about the same scale as the final COURAGE AND FORTITUDE scenario which also had about a battalion of troops with a company plus of armor and tons of supporting units and arty (but one gets to play as the US).

[sburke]

yeah I definitely had more time to proceed more slowly, but I approached it for what it was. The German unit has been given an order to sieze Schmidt that one would likely assume is part of a larger assault. I tend to move with an oversall concept in mind rather than just figuring the clock as my determinant. Just my own way of playing.

I also had a RL clock in that I am traveling starting tomorrow and wanted to finish this. I hate cliffhangers

[Pandur]

hey havent been here for a while, you guys got all worked up and i had to let this run a out a bit.

now that normandy 2.0 is out i guess this map is obsolete, i would need to redo stuff for 2.0 or not?

also i have some feedback now, in essence the long move to contact with plenty of options is good, but the way i did it was not perfect. other then that i see no "real" complaint more or less.

These sort of decisions all over the place makes this a really fun scenario. One essentially has 2 almost completely unrelated battles going on (on the east edge town, and the central town). And one has plenty of reserves to commit. If I am to join Co 1 with its vehicles, the trail through the woods has to be cleared which will make for a third simultaneous battle. Some really interesting decisions. Great stuff.

this is why i like this big maps, more of everything means either more interaction of units with each other or against each other, over bigger distances and with more option, man i like options.

also in scenarios this size some weapon systems that are somewhat shaky represeted, like the way you can only set up AT guns in the center of action spots which makes it redundant in tiny maps as they die in seconds. but when the gun is 800m away in trench its fine and deadly. i had troubles dislodging the guns with arty, mortars and all kind of stuff. never had so troublesome AT guns as in this scenario.

Nice one Pandur. At the end my armor advantage was overwhelming but the GIs were still managing to take out some of my guys all the way into the last turn. One Tiger was eventually immobilized but was still sitting as a heavy duty pillbox in a good position. The Tigers and Stummel caused most of the American casualties - The immobilized Tiger had taken out 3 Shermans, an M10, 46 GIs and a scattering of soft vehicles. One thing that was interesting is US Heavy MG teams would routinely open fire on buttoned up Tigers. Bad idea but I believe that is what eventually caused that Tiger's immobility.

I would consider having additional Shermans join the battle late, maybe 2 platoons with one coming in from each corner of the allied side sometime around the 2:00 mark if you really want to challenge the Germans. They would have potentially caused some chaos for 3rd Company and 1st Company would have been preoccupied with those for a bit.

i got feedback from players that played red stream for cmsf, a similar sized scenario that it was to hard and i admit i tend to make scenarios harder if in doubt. but this time i wanted to makes it so its winable with a solid performance "without" saving. you should be able to loose some stuff and dont have to reload. however i do not feel the forces are abundent. the 76mm AT guns can take out some critical vehicles. in this case its not bad if they take out 1 tiger, its not a 1 gun 1 tiger scenario but if you get unlucky and the 76mm take out 2 tigers or in my case immobilized one where it couldnt do anything for the rest of the game...and so on. it should also be enjoyable in short.

playing a long scenario for like 120 turns only to realize you loose slowly but surely can be very frustrating. so i tried to avoid this and also if the player takes damage and he will the tasks should get more difficult but managable. by this i dont mean it should be easy going, but wiht manageable i mean it should keep the player haning in there, he should still see the possible minor or tactical victory if nothing else, if things go badly.

For those wondering what the Americans secured in their objectives - that is a bonus to keep the US in the game from a victory point total.

i put the bonus so when you cease fire at game start the game isnt a draw but a loss. you need to get the first 2 250pts objectives to secure a draw when i remember right.

However the battle for the trail crossing in and of itself was so much fun it could easily have been a scenario of it's own and considering how divorced it is from the main battle it really is a stand alone fight. There isn't a real connection between it and the main battle unless they do drive around to take Schmidt from the opposite flank. The same could be said for the fight at Kommerscheidt. I love catching all the detail so essentially I am watching 3 different battles and reviewing each one before I give them orders. It takes some real discipline especially when you get caught up in a forest fight in the dark to remember to go check the other battles before you end the turn to issue orders.

not only for you, i routinely forget to watch 1 out of 3 scenes when one of the scenes needs quick(relative in WEGO ) attention.

you either like it or not, but i can draw again parallels to red stream map. also some ppl suggested i could split this map in 2 parts or make a 2 mission campaign out of it. but this is not what i wanted. some weapon systems in the game begin to shine on long distances and this systems can influence more then one battle "scene" with their range. and when you are concentrated on something and something else pisses you off but you will never reach it now, like a AT gun or ATGM in far distance, can pose interessting challenges. this combined with large forces and large areas and several objectives creates a battle sandbox where battles play out where the players create them up to a certain point. the player drives this large scenarios, i just place the enemy units in a sensible way.

so, i create the possibility for this isolated battles on purpouse, to create a certain effect. it also gives a sense of scale, it makes scale relative compared to what one was used to befor. i find myself go back play a regular scenario on a 800x1000 map and i think its tiny and i have no room and i get all claustrophobic

blahblahblah, all this in synergy puts out a map the way i like it, great if others like it too.

hope you had fun with it, and some new players will have...(doh i forgott its 2.0 now )