Are ATGs considered camouflaged until they fire?

[Broadsword56]

Also, there are so many variables in how players deploy their AT guns.

How many players are following WWII doctrine for these weapons -- setting them behind their front line, in "keyhole" positions, on rear slopes, etc., so they stay concealed until they take primarily flank and rear shots against the enemy and are largely unspottable/immune to direct fire from the front?

If you don't want to do that, OK, but don't be surprised if they die early and certainly don't blame the game itself.

Is the map you're playing on large and varied and detailed enough to permit this, or are you playing on the equivalent of a green tabletop? And if you don't like the maps you've got, make some!

[Sublime]

exactly. Thats a mistake I often see inexperienced players make. theyll fight and defend a treeline or the edge of a city, letting the enemy ID them and then destroy them in detail especially from afar.

you put your troops behind something, in the next row, in the next few blocks, or behind a hill, and they'll kill the enemy, and the enemy troops will be somewhat cut off from their support, and also from all the eyes that accompany the support. Often theyre killed so fast your opponent wont know what the hell happened.

also playing schultz in his own excellent in the valley of the shadow, he had a 150mm IG that decimated me the whole battle, and I never spotted or ID.d it. Mind you this is after numerous shots by it, and me having anyone I could with binocs looking for it. At best I was able to isolate its position to a rough area. Never did get the bastard. OTOH he also had an 88mm AT gun, which I DID spot quickly, and soon had mortar fire killing it. a lot of things make a difference. If you have a great high caliber AT gun, fire from afar all the way in if you want. After 1500 m, especially with the German ones, you'll make kills and it'll be hard to spot for awhile. Closer in, it'll get spotted but make the kills. It seems counterintuitive but I actually tend to ambush at closer ranges with higher caliber at guns, so as they kill and get let loose when they can do a lot of damage on numerous opponents. This is all situationally dependant of course, sometimes I have small caliber at guns ambush too of course. But my point is that the German 50mm and US 57mm can wreak havoc from a long range because theyre so small. They take forever to get spotted. Yes they have trouble penetrating heavier armor, but it still isnt fun getting pinged, and the HTs buy it. Ive also noticed that while a first round kill isnt as likely, after you ping something several times I usually get some sort of result thats negative to the enemy.

[John Kettler]

sburke,

I'm still trying to figure out good positions for ATGs in the Demo scenario I mentioned. Partial defilade in gully, cover arc, among the trees. Tank waltzes through entire arc crossing wheat field dead in front of the gun. Later, the crew gets a fairly good flank shot look, gets it off, misses from a few hundred meters, and is obliterated with one shot. This is the left gun. I've tried putting it behind the church(behind the wall there). Result, I (think) was I hit an AC in the wheels and was destroyed in a single burst of fire. I tried moving the other gun into partial defilade, but it was spotted before it could fire a shot. The entire crew got hit, too. I put the thing behind a wall near the CP, masked from the front and most of the side save the far right of the ridge. Spotted by a Marder which appeared there and systematically shot to pieces, along with the wall, before I could fire a shot! Wish I could put the bloody thing inside a house and see whether that worked. Am so disgusted that I'm seriously contemplating putting one gun in a crater to see if that helps. I thought about haystacks, but they seem more than a wee bit small. Yet I know I read of Panzers hidden in haystacks. The ones we have I doubt would mask the ATG and crew. Poor crop yield? Lazy Norman farmers?

Regards,

John Kettler

[sburke]

sburke,

I'm still trying to figure out good positions for ATGs in the Demo scenario I mentioned.Regards,

John Kettler

Was it Churchill who said "never have so few played so long for so little so monotonously repetitively..."?

buy the game, try a different scenario for god's sake.

[Childress]

John, here's a movie recommendation just for you: Groundhog Day.

[John Kettler]

sburke,

I plan to, but presently have a rather large fish to fry: a very short notice move (shared house where I live now's being sold), which is cramping my economy, such as it is, to the point it screams. Fortunately, I was frugal with the disability delta catchup payment, else I'd be totally screwed, given the front end loaded nature of moving. On the plus side, there's a possibility I may be able to get into a nice 2 bedroom apartment, to be shared with a friend, where the total costs are lower than what I'm paying now-for this falling apart practically everywhere hellhole. That would be wonderful!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Broadsword56]

Sorry to hear about your circumstances, John -- good luck and we hope you'll acquire the full game someday soon.

[John Kettler]

Childress,

Just think--after I finally figure out how to win as the Americans, I can try attacking as the Germans!

So far, the only changes I've made to the American initial deployment have been the ATGs and the HT. Basically, I let the AI run my infantry, which may or may not be a mistake. In all but one case, where I wound up taking an objective I otherwise wouldn't have, even minor movements initiated by me have been debacles. Squads slaughtered, a team trying to pick up weapons from a dead but not burning HT butchered, a squad sent in to reinforce a building cut to pieces (not even sure how). I think I'm going to have to get a LOT more involved and actually run the firefight, but there's so much to do and try to keep track of as it is. The workload's WAY higher than in CMx1.

Regards,

John Kettler

[womble]

...ATGs in the Demo scenario...

Are you talking about Closing the Gap? Ranges for cross-table shots in that scenario are so low that you certainly will get spotted and killed by return fire unless you find the proper concealment (which doesn't exist, IIRC; you will always be in poor concealment if the enemy is "down the side" and you can shoot sideways but can't shoot up and down) or get a first shot kill. It's not an ATG-friendly map.

You want to be an expert before you buy the game? Be prepared to be bored to tears of the same terrain. The game's been out a year and there aren't many who'd call themselves expert (without their tongue firmly in their cheek) and they've had the full range of options to play with. You're trying to learn to use assets in situations where you've simply been handed them and they're not actually very much use. Not all assets in all scenarios are actually useful. Some are there for flavour. Some are there because the TO says they should be there. Some are there because the designer arbitrarily thought "they need a bit more AT capability; I'll give them some ATGs". Of course your ATGs get smoked in that scenario. Very occasionally you might find a situation where they are of use, but most of the time they'll get spotted early or totally bypassed.

[John Kettler]

womble,

Points well made! I shall be most interested in seeing how Vanir Ausf B fares--if he takes on Closing the Gap. I feel the setup zone is pretty much a deathtrap, with practically every bit of it under enemy observation from that accursed ridge. Worse, the artillery fire doesn't come in from the front, but more like the flank, nullifying much of the cover provided by buildings.

Regards,

John Kettler

[womble]

Just think--after I finally figure out how to win as the Americans, I can try attacking as the Germans!

Or you could try attacking as the Germans and see what the AI does to beat you...

Basically, I let the AI run my infantry, which may or may not be a mistake.

Probably.

...minor movements initiated by me have been debacles...a squad sent in to reinforce a building cut to pieces (not even sure how)...

Squads moving in buildings are very vulnerable indeed. The buildings at the front of the village are very light and give hardly any protection; any squad moving around in/into them faster than Slow will get shot to kennomeat.

I think I'm going to have to get a LOT more involved and actually run the firefight, but there's so much to do and try to keep track of as it is. The workload's WAY higher than in CMx1.

It's a team based game rather than a squad one. I'd say there's 2 or three times as many elements per company as a CMx1 game that need managing. It just means turns take longer to set up and any given person's "sweet spot" for their "ideal" battle size will be fewer squads than it was for CMx1, generally.

[Vanir Ausf B]

womble,

Points well made! I shall be most interested in seeing how Vanir Ausf B fares--if he takes on Closing the Gap.

I'm not going to install the demo to play one scenario, but there is a scenario on the Repository called Closing the Pocket that is labeled as being from the demo. If so I will download it and give it a go from the US side as soon as I finish my current game.

[c3k]

Hmm, regarding the halftrack comment: if you're thinking about pulling ammo out of a destroyed halftrack, the first question must be, "Did the enemy who killed the halftrack move or get destroyed?" Unless the answer is a definite "yes", then you're just sending men into a convenient targeting box.

The quick solution would be to split off a pair of scouts, with a pause, to run into the halftrack. Use the rest of the squad to throw smoke. Have the platoon lay down covering fire on likely/known enemy positions. Have the other platoons feint! Send a few tanks around their flank!! Mass your artillery on their reserves!!! Send in a stream of heavy bombers just to rock their world!!!! Dear God, man; you must support those poor S.O.B.'s who are getting your ammo for you.

[Vanir Ausf B]

What halftrack comment? Wrong thread?

I was not aware units could enter destroyed vehicles.

EDIT: Ok, I see which comment you were referring to.

[John Kettler]

womble,

Didn't realize how flimsy those forward buildings were. No wonder my guys keep getting shredded! As for attacking, if I can't even run infantry competently in the defense, how am I supposed to do so in the attack? Also, have yet to figure out how to rally the troops. They seem to just decay to a certain point and never get back in the fight. Well, I did try with one squad that still had some fight, but fight was no match for MG-42 and 2 cm fires!

Vanir Ausf B,

Fair enough. Pretty sure it's the same one. Look forward to your report!

As far as taking gear from a destroyed vehicle, I wasn't sure, either, but thought I'd give it a try. Unless the vehicle burns or explodes, in the real world much usable equipment remains. Case in point: The Muj salvaged rocket pods and other nastiness from downed Russian helicopters. German crews frequently blew up their vehicles rather than having them captured and used against die Vaterland, and some were, everything from Kettenkrads to King Tigers. Cooper's guys in DEATH TRAP routinely refurbished shot up Shermans which hadn't burned or exploded. And look at the lengths the U.S. has gone to in Iraq to keep the secrets of an immobilized M!A2 out of enemy hands.

c3k,

Good ideas, albeit more than a bit hyperbolic in places. Last time I tried it, not only were my stalwarts shot to pieces, but I didn't know the Acquire command then.

Regards,

John Kettler

[chas_in_mlb]

I also recall that Audie Murphy won a CMOH mounting a burning tank and using the M2 to F-Up the Germans in his area.

Extreme example, I guess.

Back to topic- I have found hedges very effective in concealment. I do, however, find it VERY frustrating that they are significant blockages to LOS and my infantry still won't cross them. I understand the difference between hedges and low hedgerows, but I still find myself having to blow up hedges with demo charges.

[womble]

As for attacking, if I can't even run infantry competently in the defense, how am I supposed to do so in the attack?

Sometimes attacking is easier. You have the initiative and numeric advantage, and can mass your fires to suppress the less numerous defender, allowing more freedom of movement. As the defender, you're the one suffering the suppression and overwatch. If the scenario was a properly conceived reverse slope defense, that might not be so true, but as you've noted, the Germans hold the high ground and the Amis can't effectively contest their introducing fire support assets that can pin them.

Also, have yet to figure out how to rally the troops.

There's no active way to directly rally troops. All you can do is provide the best circumstances for them to rally. That involves keeping them out of harm's way and in C2, basically. And even then, if they've been disrupted beyond a certain point they'll be "brittle" no matter what their status display says, and largely combat ineffective if brought under fire. As you've found, there's no real place for the Amis to recover in the village.

[John Kettler]

chas_in_mlb,

Welcome aboard!

Audie Murphy won the MOH standing on the rear deck of a burning M10. He used the the fearsome .50 to hold off an entire German infantry regiment (as I recall) slogging forward through heavy snow. Citation follows:

Medal of Honor citation

The official U.S. Army citation for Murphy's Medal of Honor reads:[1][14]

Rank and organization: Second Lieutenant, U.S. Army, Company B 15th Infantry, 3rd Infantry Division.

Place and date: Near Holtzwihr France, January 26, 1945.

Entered service at: Dallas, Texas. Birth: Hunt County, near Kingston, Texas, G.O. No. 65, August 9, 1944.

Citation: Second Lt. Murphy commanded Company B, which was attacked by six tanks and waves of infantry. 2d Lt. Murphy ordered his men to withdraw to a prepared position in a woods, while he remained forward at his command post and continued to give fire directions to the artillery by telephone. Behind him, to his right, one of our tank destroyers received a direct hit and began to burn. Its crew withdrew to the woods. 2d Lt. Murphy continued to direct artillery fire, which killed large numbers of the advancing enemy infantry. With the enemy tanks abreast of his position, 2d Lt. Murphy climbed on the burning tank destroyer, which was in danger of blowing up at any moment, and employed its .50 caliber machine gun against the enemy. He was alone and exposed to German fire from three sides, but his deadly fire killed dozens of Germans and caused their infantry attack to waver. The enemy tanks, losing infantry support, began to fall back. For an hour the Germans tried every available weapon to eliminate 2d Lt. Murphy, but he continued to hold his position and wiped out a squad that was trying to creep up unnoticed on his right flank. Germans reached as close as 10 yards, only to be mowed down by his fire. He received a leg wound, but ignored it and continued his single-handed fight until his ammunition was exhausted. He then made his way back to his company, refused medical attention, and organized the company in a counterattack, which forced the Germans to withdraw. His directing of artillery fire wiped out many of the enemy; he killed or wounded about 50. 2d Lt. Murphy's indomitable courage and his refusal to give an inch of ground saved his company from possible encirclement and destruction, and enabled it to hold the woods which had been the enemy's objective.

Taken from here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audie_Murphy#Medal_of_Honor_action

Regards,

John Kettler

[altipueri]

Try and set that up as a QB and see what happens.

The Germans seem to have showed my level of competence.