Kampfgruppe Engel, The king Tiger Mission

[slysniper]

"Spoilers" from the start

I recently finished this mission in the campaign and decided to go pack and play it a second time. Something I rarely do, but I just had to here.

The mission I am refering to is the one where you are to go retreive a king tiger that has been left in now what is behind the enemy lines.

As I played the Mission, I was aggressive because I wanted to get the Tiger tank back and into play. I found I was a hair short as to adcheiving that. I was so close but the tank was under enemy fire that I could not clear and a enemy tank was already trying to destroy it.

I still gave it a try. managed to get my tank crew to within 5 meters and then watched them get gunned down.

The rest of the mission is a great challenge as to how to tactically withdrawl off the map, but also destroy the enemy which is in pursuit and also trying to push the map, they outnumber you by a major amount.

I just had to do this a second time for a few reasons, I had yet to play a scenario where I have had the King Tiger, Second I really wanted to see how it would help with the challenging objective of this battle.

So I found a file that was just at the start of the mission, I did not change anything, but this time I really played with the same task force I had before at a high risk aggressive nature, they were Hell bent on retrieving the Tiger. It appears that is about the only way you can get there in time before reinforcements make the task too difficult.

With the King Tiger in hand, I was able to use it to cover the withdrawl on one flank as I used my trusty Panther on the other.

The mission is still a very challenging one, but I cut my losses by a good sum.

As for destroying the enemy, It was about the same. In my first battle the Panther was the Hero, but he was also the only tank to leave the map.

This time, I managed to get three tanks off the map but still lost the Linx and one Pz IV, which was sad since he was making the last turn to the exit point when he was spotted and killed.

It still was a loss on the victory level and I will go back and play on with my original outcome, but Just wanted to say "Thanks" to a job well down to the man that designed that Scenario.

[Boche]

I "lost" this mission, and act 1.

Bad thing is all I had was 1 panzer IV (with badly shot up tracks) and 2 lynx to help me defend and I though I should get the tiger and retreat immediatelly.

It was deffinatelly a great mission, very tense trying to retrieve the tiger.

[Erwin]

The KT is fun in subsequent missions. But, there is a problem with tank guns seeming to be prime targets and I found the KT gun was soon disabled - and then you are left with a heavily armored mobile MG.

[Boche]

The KT is fun in subsequent missions. But, there is a problem with tank guns seeming to be prime targets and I found the KT gun was soon disabled - and then you are left with a heavily armored mobile MG.

or a heavily armoured decoy jaja

[Sakai007]

**********************************************************************************************************************************Spoiler Alert!!! ************** ********************************************************************************************************************

This campaign is so very well put together. I really don't play campaigns all that much, ADHD is a mean mother! I am playing this one, and am currently about 10 turns into the second mission of Act I. I managed to get through the first mission only losing one Lynx and one PzIV (that hurt I have a feeling...) What really did me in was the end of the mission. I had actually played the first half of the mission when CW was released just so I could play with a Lynx.

When I came back to the mission, I decided to be a little more aggressive then I was the first time. It worked out pretty well in the beginning. One thing I do in almost every mission I play is overestimating the enemy's forces and those forces capability. You see a squad, I say to myself, "there must be a whole company over there, best take this slow....." I took the OP on the right using my PzIIs and PzIVs to suppress enemy infantry contacts while the boys advanced, sometimes under fire. At the road block I routed the troops defending the road and hedges and inflicted serious losses as they ran from the fight. Then......I went to move a unit up the main road to flank and destroy units I had pinned down behind the barn. Ran right into an HMG team and took a few losses.

At this point, frustration won out over patience and I used a lot of direct HE fire to dislodge all the infantry I could find. I regrouped my boys and took the OP on the right of the road (facing the enemy lines) and the first of two on the left side of the road. That operation went of without a hitch and only 2 or 3 losses. This is when the enemy armor showed up. My Panther and other Lynx were advancing through the field left of the road, the Lynx went up in a flash, but not before knocking out an enemy M8 armored car. The Panther then dispatched the two tanks who hadn't made the safety of the hedge rows. I then brought up a PzShrek trooper who lost his team mate and had one round left. He snuggled up to the hedge and KO'd the enemy tank like it was nothing.

That's right! Pics or it didn't happen? Here it is!

After this the rest of the assault went pretty well. I lost the better part of a rifle squad at the final objective due to direct 60mm fire, but it was an outstanding victory, and some of the most fun I have had in a CM campaign!!!

[gick]

Yeah, Kampfgruppe Engel and Tiger Poaching in particular really are fantastic.

As much as I enjoy the straightforward attack/defend missions, breaking them up with the odd fluid battle like this one is great. You have to make some tough decisions as to which forces to push to the tiger with (and how fast) and tactical withdrawl missions are always real nailbiters - you have to inflict as many casualties as possible, but leaving units in place for even a few seconds too long can lead to their destruction. Great fun.

I managed to do pretty well on this mission, but I was super lucky. I pushed hard for the tiger with both PzIVs, a Panther and a support halftrack backing up a platoon of inf and what was left of my pioneers. I withdrew them under a smokescreen, but it cleared up sooner than I anticipated and my Panther found itself less than 50m away from a full platoon of Shermans, all of which it managed to KO suffering only a damaged track and radio. I parked the same Panther further back where it KOd a few more tanks before getting knocked out right at the end - it must have taken at least a dozen direct hits, but they kept pinging off the armour, giving me enough time to get lots of men to the exit zone.

Like I said, a reeeeal nailbiter.

[JyriErik]

One question. When the KT was moved, did you follow the roads? I was able to get it off thge map with minmal damage (one track hit) simply by blowing holes in the bocage with my pioneers & breech team and having it move back through the middle of the map & avoided the roads until I had broken contact with US forces, then I ran it to the exit zone.

Jyri

[Erwin]

I used Jyri's plan as well and it worked out quite well in terms of getting the Tiger back with min casualties.

[Boche]

Lol, I just used the most western road, and backtracked towards the retreat area.

managed to turn my tiger arround just as the enemy started its advance.

[slysniper]

I had sent both PZ IV's up and the panther to help retrieve the King Tiger.

For the withdrawl, I had the panther on the right side road and moved the King tiger to the left side road, reversed them all the way back. stopped at locations, let them give cover fire and take out enemy units. They both are pretty safe as long as you dont let the enemy get any units onto their flank.

I retreated the Pz IV through blown holes through the Bocages by the pioneers.

They are so Brittle, I did not want them taking any rounds if I could avoid it.

With this method I destroyed 16 enemy tanks, almost managed to get all my tanks off the board. I will admit the Panther was pretty chewed up. Its tracks were in very bad shape and it was just barely moving. All part of the fun.

[gick]

IIRC (its been a while since I did it) I used demo charges to get the KT out of its starting field, then reversed it back along the main road. I figured as it was virtually indestructible from the front it would be a risk worth taking.

Given the amount of hits that it shrugged off, and Shermans it took out, it was a gamble that paid off.

[slysniper]

IIRC (its been a while since I did it) I used demo charges to get the KT out of its starting field, then reversed it back along the main road. I figured as it was virtually indestructible from the front it would be a risk worth taking.

Given the amount of hits that it shrugged off, and Shermans it took out, it was a gamble that paid off.

You have to be a little careful, I tested the firefly to its front armor and was able to get kills against the front armor at a pretty good distance, I would have to find the thread I started on that to remember what I found. But they are not Virtually indestructable, but still the best thing going around.

[ss11955]

Which Campaign includes this Mission ? thanks.

[slysniper]

Which Campaign includes this Mission ? thanks.

The title of the thread ??? Kampfgruppe Engel. It came in the CW Module:)

[gick]

You have to be a little careful, I tested the firefly to its front armor and was able to get kills against the front armor at a pretty good distance, I would have to find the thread I started on that to remember what I found. But they are not Virtually indestructable, but still the best thing going around.

Yeah if there were fireflies about I would've kept it well hidden, but the 75s and 76s the yank armour was carrying didn't worry me.

That said, other threads here have suggested that KTs can be quite vulnerable to losing their main gun to direct hits from some of the weaker Allied AT weapons, so I'll have to be careful in the rest of the missions of the campaign.

[Amizaur]

Your best tactic to not loose the gun would be to not aim at any of potentially dangerous targets (that have their own guns) . Better keep the barrel to the side then it won't be hit and damaged .

And seriously - avoid ANY hull down position. Even being behind a hedge.

You want enemy tanks aiming at center of mass of your tank's full silhouette, this way on medium ranges most of the shots will land on front hull and lower parts of the turret. You want to aviod situations where enemy tanks would be aiming at center of mass of your KTs upper part, where the gun is...

Exactly opposite, to the real life... IRL you would prefer hull-down positions. In hull-down you would be harder to spot, and harder to hit, even if chances for gun damage would be a little higher than when fully exposed. But overall chances of being hit AND damaged would be smaller.

Here, in game, chances for a hit from 75mm Sherman that will cause KT's gun damage at 400m distance are 0.2% while being exposed and 16% in hull down position *

(txt below written in very small font)

* - results of a single test

[sburke]

Your best tactic to not loose the gun would be to not aim at any of potentially dangerous targets (that have their own guns) . Better keep the barrel to the side then it won't be hit and damaged .

And seriously - avoid ANY hull down position. Even being behind a hedge.

You want enemy tanks aiming at center of mass of your tank's full silhouette, this way on medium ranges most of the shots will land on front hull and lower parts of the turret. You want to aviod situations where enemy tanks would be aiming at center of mass of your KTs upper part, where the gun is...

Exactly opposite, to the real life... IRL you would prefer hull-down positions. In hull-down you would be harder to spot, and harder to hit, even if chances for gun damage would be a little higher than when fully exposed. But overall chances of being hit AND damaged would be smaller.

Here, in game, chances for a hit from 75mm Sherman that will cause KT's gun damage at 400m distance are 0.2% while being exposed and 16% in hull down position *

(txt below written in very small font)

* - results of a single test

I still issue commands based on real tactics. I don't seem to see the laser targeting some folks notice (I recently had a Tiger come up into a hull down position at close range to an enemy Churchill that fired twice and missed high both times). Maybe that will change when I have opportunity to use a KT.

[Amizaur]

I like to use real life tactics too, and I use them whenever I can... and it's a bit frustrating when using some advanced tactics based on real life results in a non-realistic outcome, because those tactics doesn't work in the game, or work just opposite to the real life...

[JonS]

Tactics isn't a game of paper, scissors, rock.

Usually good tactics result in good outcomes. Sometimes bad tactics result in good outcomes. The only thing you can be sure of - in the game as in Real Life - is that if you use the same tactic - good or bad - a lot you'll see both good and bad outcomes from it.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Exactly opposite, to the real life... IRL you would prefer hull-down positions. In hull-down you would be harder to spot, and harder to hit, even if chances for gun damage would be a little higher than when fully exposed.

Being hull down in the game does make you harder to spot and harder to hit. Test it

[Amizaur]

Tested . But - after being spotted - stilll the overall chance for gun damage is higher.

A chance counted as

[ (number of KT gun damages) / (number of shells fired by shermans)]

So the reduced accuracy and total misses are accounted for. Only the "not being spotted yet" effect - isn't .

About proper tactics working or not:

A proper tactic for 75mm equipped Sherman commander vs a Panther, would be to ambush it from the side or rear. So I move to an ambush position and I'm so fortunate to get a possibility of a clear shot against a Panther side at about 200m.

The Sherman shots to a buttoned Panther and clearly penetrates it's side under the turret. The Sherman starts to reload, and the Panther immediately after penetration spots the Sherman and starts rotating it's turret. Before the Sherman reloaded, Panther's turret was pointing at the Sherman. The second Sherman shot, again penetration of Panther side. Panther seem to be not impressed again, as about a second after finishing rotating it's turret and after the second penetration by Sherman, it shots and kills the Sherman.

I don't want to say it's impossible - those strange and frustrating outcomes. Only that they happen much too often in game for me...

Things like I've described above had happened to me in CMBN many times. The penetration - if it didn't knock-out enemy tank completly - often seemed to have little effect on the working conditions and effectivenes of it's crew. The crew of penetrated vehicle instantly spotted the shooter (it seemed like they got position of the shooter at the moment they were hit), quickly rotated the turret and killed it - just like it was a ricoshet that hit them, not a clean penetration by 75mm or 76mm shell with possibly a HE burster going off inside. I'm starting to fear side-ambushing German tanks with fast rotationg turrets, so Panther and KT. Maybe I'll try rear-ambushes but they are harder to make .

Yes, the "**** happens" and should happen, to make the game fun and realistic.

But if it happens too often, frustration begins...

The "5 penetrations surviving Sherman" could happen in RL. A defective Panther's ammo would help it greatly to occur . It also should happen in game. I think once a year for all the CMBN games played anywhere .

[ss11955]

Being hull down in the game does make you harder to spot and harder to hit. Test it

Just starting this KT mission------excuse my ignorance but--- WHERE DO I FIND THE "HULL DOWN" COMMAND ? Thanks

[Boche]

Just starting this KT mission------excuse my ignorance but--- WHERE DO I FIND THE "HULL DOWN" COMMAND ? Thanks

Doesnt exist, you have to do it manually.

[flyinhank]

This would be alot more fun to check out if I could only get past the first mission w/out it CRASHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes I feel better .

[umlaut]

Flyinhank, your problem is due to a well known bug: Barbed wire.

This makes the game crash when you press "go" in the first turn - but only if you have loaded a save file of the first turn.

So what you have to do is to start the campaign from scratch, setup and play the first turn - without saving and reloading.

Tiresome and annoying? Yes, certainly. But not impossible to work around. And make sure you save the game "between" the missions as there are more barbed wire to come.

Hopefully, BFC will release a patch that fixes this sometime. But with BFC you never know if it will be tomorrow or next year...