ArmouredTopHat

I think people have different ideas about what it means to "work". I am unaware of any technical limitation that would prevent it from working most of the time in Ukraine, or anywhere else, but it's not an invincibility shield. The US Army claims a 70% interception rate for the Iron Fist APS on the Bradley in their "challenging and rigorous testing" (their words,  not mine) and apparently consider that good enough to be worth it*
No one should expect APS to revolutionize warfare. It's one tool in the tool box.
* Interestingly, an earlier version only achieved a 50% intercept rate, which was deemed not good enough.

Forgive the er...interesting editing of this footage, I think its worth viewing all the same. 

Forgive the er...interesting editing of this footage, I think its worth viewing all the same. 

There's a couple of reasons this is not happening. One is that western nations are sending their older equipment first and APS is only present on the newest versions. The other is that all western APS systems presently fielded are Israeli made and would presumably require Israeli permission to re-export. Note that we have not seen Spike NLOS or any other version of Spike in Ukraine despite thousands of them in NATO inventories. I don't think we should interpret that to mean Spike doesn't work.

I do not disagree with this, but that does not mean my opinion gets to be discarded so callously and an insinuation made that I am doing this as part of an 'agenda'. The whole affair reeked of intellectual gatekeeping and its just not very nice. 

I am just a guy who happened to study military history at university and have a great interest in the subject. I dont work for a military company or government, I have literally no stake in this. I was just interested in a forum from a series game I like to play that seemed to be on the ball (and did not tolerate Russian disinformation). Yet Capt decided to make a wild assumption and announce it publicly to that affect in a way that is frankly quite childish. It was simply unnecessary.

Its just more than a little bit insulting when people who I have been following react so caustically to my opinion while also misreading my points and proceed to do the intellectual equivalent of flipping the table despite me saying multiple times I agree on a lot of points and find their notions insightful. I put a lot of time in replying in detail as much as I could to people, so forgive me if I am a little jaded when someone decides to pull a stunt like that. It was not what I expected from this forum to put it simply. 
 
I dont know how many times I have said how open I am to being convinced otherwise, hell I have acknowledged to that effect that partially due to this forum that my views have changed over the course of two years on a lot of things. Yet I get labelled as a 'conservative' all the same for simply thinking that perhaps some conclusions might be premature or that there could be other options? Its like me calling you a drone fanatic or something odd. 

I have literally deferred my opinion several times on subjects. I have asked questions knowing that people have better answers than I do. That does not mean I cant form my own opinions, or look at evidence scattered around that makes similar notions that I do. Certainly doesn't mean certain people here get to discard opinions because they dont agree on them. 

This could of all been avoided with an agree to disagree notion, which I also put forward. 

I think you are spot on honestly. I know I am very much guilty of last wording debates and need to work on it. No offense taken in the slightest. 

Forgive the er...interesting editing of this footage, I think its worth viewing all the same. 

Forgive the er...interesting editing of this footage, I think its worth viewing all the same. 

I think you are spot on honestly. I know I am very much guilty of last wording debates and need to work on it. No offense taken in the slightest. 

Please don't take offense - none is intended but at the same time I recognize you both might not like to hear what I'm about to say. I'm just offering an observation that you can do with what you wish.
Just form observing both of you (one of you for years : - ) you both seem like the type that feels a need to get in the last word. That can be a very hard thing to deal with when you disagree. As I am sure you can reflect you both had opportunities where you could have said, to your self, "there is nothing new in that comment so I don't need to respond" but frequently you both did the opposite.
When no one has had time to reflect or digest more information and may make adjustments to their positions and also has a strong desire to have the last word you can get some serious around and around we go arguments going on.

I do not disagree with this, but that does not mean my opinion gets to be discarded so callously and an insinuation made that I am doing this as part of an 'agenda'. The whole affair reeked of intellectual gatekeeping and its just not very nice. 

I am just a guy who happened to study military history at university and have a great interest in the subject. I dont work for a military company or government, I have literally no stake in this. I was just interested in a forum from a series game I like to play that seemed to be on the ball (and did not tolerate Russian disinformation). Yet Capt decided to make a wild assumption and announce it publicly to that affect in a way that is frankly quite childish. It was simply unnecessary.

Its just more than a little bit insulting when people who I have been following react so caustically to my opinion while also misreading my points and proceed to do the intellectual equivalent of flipping the table despite me saying multiple times I agree on a lot of points and find their notions insightful. I put a lot of time in replying in detail as much as I could to people, so forgive me if I am a little jaded when someone decides to pull a stunt like that. It was not what I expected from this forum to put it simply. 
 
I dont know how many times I have said how open I am to being convinced otherwise, hell I have acknowledged to that effect that partially due to this forum that my views have changed over the course of two years on a lot of things. Yet I get labelled as a 'conservative' all the same for simply thinking that perhaps some conclusions might be premature or that there could be other options? Its like me calling you a drone fanatic or something odd. 

I have literally deferred my opinion several times on subjects. I have asked questions knowing that people have better answers than I do. That does not mean I cant form my own opinions, or look at evidence scattered around that makes similar notions that I do. Certainly doesn't mean certain people here get to discard opinions because they dont agree on them. 

This could of all been avoided with an agree to disagree notion, which I also put forward. 

Fair enough, I admit that some of my arguments were made poorly and in haste due to replying to a lot of people, which certainly did not help. I think its for the best that Capt and I cease interacting certainly, I am just sad he had to do it in such a manner that is so antithesis to his otherwise sound judgement. He makes good points and its sad to see such behaviour in all honesty. 

My only defence to the scattered evidence thing is that this is not exactly an opinion exclusive to me. Could still be wrong for all I know. 

Yea thats not how this works
The issue is more the manufacturer has no incentive to send it to generate sales as theyre already coming and the governments dont because its new gear and we dont really sent much top of the line kit there

I think this is the first footage I have seen of a potential automatic extinguisher at work. (thought it might just be the chad of a fellow on top putting it out himself, its hard to tell.)

The IDF introduced trophy on a single btl. Evaluated it including active combat. rolled it out to an entire brigade and fought some more. Then rolled it out for every MBT and heavy APC.
We have germany and the us independently evaluate it aswell and decide to buy it with britain still evaluating.
It can currently deal with rpgs and atgms that are direct attack or overflying but not diving so currently no javelin interception. It also gives the origin of the detected projectile so a good chance that if you shoot at a such equipped vehicle youre going to catch return fire unless you ko it.
Defending against diving atgm should be quite possible with simply adding another radar panel + interceptor facing up but with those being so far only in use with western armies and maybe china there hasnt been any incentive to cover that angle.
It should in principle also be possible to get it to shoot down FPVs by adjusting its code. Now I wouldnt rely on it alone as the debris from intercepted drones can still damage the radars so if youre getting attacked 10 times you might intercept the first 5 but then youre probably done. But as a layer in the defense it can do quite a bit.
 
Yea i dont fundamentally disagree with this assessment. The question is what exactly needs to change in technology and doctrine.

Timely paper from RUSI by Jack Watling and Nick Reynolds
Tactical Lessons from Israel Defense Forces Operations in Gaza, 2023
The sporadic anti-tank guided missile and persistent RPG threat – often manifesting from a 30–50-m distance from IDF vehicles – posed a challenge for active protection systems (APS). Where APS had either been turned off, did not have a sufficient line of sight between the sensor and the threat, or had already been expended, hits were achieved on IDF vehicles. Nevertheless, while Hamas believed that APS could be defeated with close engagements, this problem was resolved through software updates. In most cases, APS proved effective, although the distance between armour and infantry for APS to be fielded safely also offered Hamas fighters the opportunity to come in extremely close proximity to some vehicles. Nevertheless, it was found that having pairs of vehicles operate in intimate support helped to increase their survivability, as the APS could often overlap and thereby increase the magazine depth to protect the vehicles.

Some interesting information on the Polish K2 acquisition which seems to be taking on board a number of notes from the Ukraine war. 

Well, that's one way to shunt what was initially an very good first impression to why the hell did I even bother taking the time of day to respond to this person in the first place. Truly Disappointing. 

A true cherry on top being that I must have an agenda rather than daring to have my own opinions on a subject. I am sure Rheinmetall is so desperate that they sent me as an agent onto a video game forum to drum up support. 

Well, that's one way to shunt what was initially an very good first impression to why the hell did I even bother taking the time of day to respond to this person in the first place. Truly Disappointing. 

A true cherry on top being that I must have an agenda rather than daring to have my own opinions on a subject. I am sure Rheinmetall is so desperate that they sent me as an agent onto a video game forum to drum up support. 

I entirely agree that a few Russian airbases need the ATACMS treatment. I really wish the Americans were not so spineless in this regard, and I am not hopeful for their future support either, at best we have a lukewarm support from Biden....or the whatever the hell insanity Trump will unleash. Either way we are really lacking that decisive US leadership that we have grown a little too dependant on. 

Can only hope the elections so far this year have set a trend...

Some interesting information on the Polish K2 acquisition which seems to be taking on board a number of notes from the Ukraine war. 

Well, that's one way to shunt what was initially an very good first impression to why the hell did I even bother taking the time of day to respond to this person in the first place. Truly Disappointing. 

A true cherry on top being that I must have an agenda rather than daring to have my own opinions on a subject. I am sure Rheinmetall is so desperate that they sent me as an agent onto a video game forum to drum up support. 

Some interesting information on the Polish K2 acquisition which seems to be taking on board a number of notes from the Ukraine war.