Snowstorm

I think someone's been just a little TOO deep into all this. For those of us who DO appreciate all the effort Hubert put into this, this new manual certainly offers alot of great new information on what seems an exciting new game. I can't wait. And yes, XW, I agree with you, let's stop all the nonsense, it's gone on long enough.

As long as you're still here, Tim, can you tell some of us who don't know you all that well a bit about yourself before you go deader than a doornob? Oh well, too late I guess. Bummer.

I agree with you, JJR. Even reading just the highlighted "New" sections will take quite a bit of time.......good way for Hubert to keep us occupied with game issues.

Yes indeed. Makes for very quick reading. :cool:

PowerGmbH, Couldn't the diplomatic level in the first few turns be "set" by the programmers to have certain diplomatic levels to automatically raise at least a certain marginal amount (to be sped up or slowed down by diplomatic means of MPPs during the early game) to trigger automatic entry for some within a predetermined amount of time? It would still allow for some element of flexibility for awhile, but still guarantee certain events of war to occur to match with the intent of the mod developer for the scenario. Otherwise, a country (let's say a Balkan one) could be programmed to be attacked at the start of the scenario, leading to certain major countries to reach the war entry level, similar to England and France declaring war soon after the attack on Poland in Storm of Steel for example?

JJ, I must admit I did not examine the diplomatic possibilities as you put forth, only the military ones at this point. I think you're right. Oh course, as you said, the strategic possibilities are many (perhaps almost endless) and certainly exciting to consider as far as the new global game is concerned! :cool:

Oh I agree with you Arado, I am just wondering aloud just what the strategy would have been to seize the Caucusus. It seems to me there are several different strategies one could use to do this. Also, another thought: Under this scenario, I would think Stalin (and the Russian forces) would NOT be as surprised by a German attack as they were before. I would think with this scenario they would be better prepared for the attack. Prepared enough? Well, that's what this scenario is for, but if I were designing the scenario, I think I would have better ( or more) forces protecting the Russian borders in this circumstance to start out with than they did historically.

Although I think Hitler would have insisted on more in France, I think the scenario is plausible. Here are my thoughts: Under this situation, I can see the Germans having basically two large troop concentrations, one in Poland as was the case, perhaps an equal one or smaller near Turkey (assuming the Balkans again enter the Axis fold). Now from this point, the size of the force near Turkey depends on how successful Germany is at getting Turkey to join them. If Turkey does not, I can see the terrain of Turkey becoming a giant obstacle to the push east into the Middle East and toward the Caucusus region, unless it can find a better location south along the east coast of the Mediterranean. This also brings another question: how much of an issue of Turkey joining the Axis might it affect the Axis striking through the southern Black Sea (with assistance from the Italian Navy?) toward the Caucusus region or Sevestapol through that route?

I quite agree with you, Sea Monkey.

XWormwood, But then the USA would have needed time just to get those tanks, guns, etc. to England, and most likely the time would not have been enough. Look how long it took Operation Torch to get launched, Nov. of 1942, 11 months after declaring war. In the case of helping England, they probably would have had no more than 3-4 months before winter would begin to set in, so if Germany were to take England by the end of the year (of course assuming the Germans were to succeed, which is also a very big if), I would think the USA would not have been able to make that much difference in that short period of time.

Come on Brian, fess up. You're really Yoda, right? Revealed yourself, you did. :cool:

Conspiracy freak? No problem, so am I (and by the way, some conspiracies ARE real :eek: )

JerseyJohn- XWormwood- JJR-Arado, After considering what all of you said, I think the German airforce would have had a chance to gain air superiority, but it would have been a very close call, and having done that, they would have had a very narrow window of opportunity to succeed in invading England, not to conquer it completely, but to subdue it enough to force it to come to terms favorable to Germany before winter set in. Obviously, their chances would have been better with a more military savvy leader than Hitler, but perhaps possible if a few breaks went their way. I have a difficult time believing the U.S. would have had time to mount a significant rescue of Britain in such a short time with all the logistics involved under those circumstances. Three to four months for logistics? I'm not an expert on logistics, but I doubt it.

JJR, Well, like Kuni said, they're in San Quentin, and like YOU said, you're the last one left......I think........:confused: :eek: Bo, You sound a bit like the Gothic type, perhaps we need to liven you up!! If you have 3 charming grandchildren and 2 great daughter-in-laws, I only hope I can say the same about my 5 year old daughter when she grows up. Try the Patton Drives East game, I found it to be very good.

Ok, how about another what-if: Let's assume that the German air force decides to continue (in late summer-fall of 1940) their bombing of the British air bases instead of changing tactics by bombing the English cities as they did. This, from what I understand, allowed the British to rebuild their air bases and their air force while Germany bombed the cities. It is thought if the Germans had continued their attacks primarily against the British air force just a little longer they may have established German air superiority and would have the air cover needed for Operation Sea Lion. If Germany (let's assume Hitler was removed or had a change of strategy) had decided not to give Russia much priority at least until 1942 (or so Stalin thought), and concentrated on removing England from the war theater and creating an iron grip on western Europe instead, would, with the greater concentration of resources in France instead of increasingly in Poland as well as the establishment of air superiority over England, have given the Germans success in subduing England and put them in better position to perhaps deal with Russia at a later date?

Oh, I don't know JJ, I think I can smell an expansion for this game coming out of all this (the force is STRONG in this one.....oops! Wrong thread. ) Hey, I'm of half German (and half Irish) descent myself and I feel fine. What's that sayin' "The Germans make the beer, and the Irish drink it"? Oh, I could be wrong....:eek:

"NOOOOoooo, Noooo.... ----Kuni

Actually JJR, I think most people here are just hypothesizing what might have happened if Hitler was NOT in charge in the early years, that's all.

Han Solo to Chewie: "I gotta bad feeling about this." :eek:

The Russians had spies in the German military all along, and still couldn't get Stalin to believe them when they warned him of an impending invasion in summer 1941. I don't have much reason to believe that it would have been different in 1940. Nonetheless, I would be interested to see if anyone here can make a good case that it would be different. I'm all ears.

It seems to me that as good an idea as this is, it could not be done as a simple patch. It would probably have to be done as an expansion to the new Global game, but I would think it could be done.

I have to agree with you, Arado. I can't picture our government (even back then) using the money on social services and such during the height of war at the time. It either would have been used on something war-related or not at all.

Here's another what-if: Germany delaying it's attack on Poland until May, 1940. Let's suppose Germany does not make the Molotov agreement with Russia until then, and when reaching the Bug River, proceeds to cross it and surprise the Russians by immediately breaking the agreement and crushes the unsuspecting Russians coming forward to claim eastern Poland. What defenses Russia had in 1941 may not have been in place in 1940 under these circumstances, and would be that much less prepared in any cases (same would be true with the Germans, but still be an advantage). Also, France and England might be even less inclined to fight as long as Germany continued east, instead of west. Any thoughts?

JJ, Your idea for player options as well as other options mentioned previously are very good. In fact, I would say they certainly build a good case for at least an expansion to the Global game. Hmmm....by George, I think he's got it! :eek: :cool:

"Problem is, without that anti-semite spark (spirit of hate), they may have not gotten into power in 1933." "'Hey guys, the Germans are bad" --- Band of Brothers