DavidFields

[pssst...rumor has it that the barbed wire is mined. So, losing the engineers was likely not because you did something wrong. And whatever happens.....don't decide to completely stop playing a wargame ever again after this scenario.]

Thanks, I will have to try this. Somehow, I had it in my mind that the blast point was supposed to be on the far side of the bocage.

Generally I like to be upbeat. So let me just add, 35 minutes into the scenario: I tried to, for once, move an entire company by clicking on the HQ and then moving everyone at once, rather that plotting each unit. Now I now why I tend to plot each unit--the result was a mess. I survived, mostly, a platoon reinforcement, and some tanks, entering at a point exposed to enemy fire. I sort of knew that there were guns on my right flank--guess I could have tried to take them out had I correctly surmised where my reinforcements were going to come in. Not prioritizing my unit moves has been a mistake, with the engineers/pioneers getting to the places where they need to be many minutes later than needed to be the case. I feel like I am organizing a Pep Rally rather than an attack, as units bunch up to high density. Thankfully, no enemy artillery. Don't think winning is going to be a problem.

Yes, I certainly meant genius devilish. And, to add to the genius, I now see that there are so many reinforcements in the last battle that playing it through the direct route (winning School) while taking a lot of casualties, may plausibly allow a win. What I don't know, since I did not go that route, if killing enemy units along the way affects the final battle. Agua, what is it you do not like about the final map? Exhausting? It does seem a bit of the long-march-of-a-lot-of-units type initially, like University. Except for Outskirts, I suggest staying away from the minefields. Play a little longer, and I think you might be amazed at your reinforcements. (That being said, after playing this Campaign for almost 2 months, there is some fatigue which can occur.)

2 or 3 squads.... Excuse me for interupting a thread worthy of the price of CMBN for a game-design related question, but it sort of tracks with this thread. In CMBO, IIRC, Airborne scenarios often had perfect TOE squads, powerful. It was a bit monotonous. In reality, as noted in this thread, the actual TOE of what fought in Normandy, after the scrounging and the drop, must have been one of the most variable in the war (Hey, lose your weapon, in desperation pick up an enemy one) It seems to me that variability of unit weaponry does seem to be in CMBN, how much with the Airborne, actually fighting, units?

I am going to, not very vehemently, disagree with this. To me, it adds character to the units. And a wounded unit with a BAR, or a wounded solo HQ, may be more valuable slow than not available at all. That being said, I don't agree with the "don't leave anyone behind." In a war with fronts (for the US, Korea after the stabilization of the front, and prior), someone whose condition was endangering the unit mission could just be sent back to a rear "rally" point. This is partly why (and I struggle with this) I am less than enamored with the Buddy Aid. Fighting and endless war, with an endless enemy, where every friendly casualty was noteworthy, the showing of Buddy Aid makes sense. But that was not, IMHO, WW2. Get the (red cross marked) injured off the field. We need, as the Allies, to get to Berlin. A few more daily casualties for a markedly shorter war would have been a bargain. For the Germans, patching someone up so they could be a POW, or sent away from the front, was not very useful. But I can certainly see the other side. Different aspects of the simulation are going to be interesting to different people. Again, for me, the concept that my yellow-wounded soldiers walk slower is fascinating.

#3 University Did you try to take the back right objective, or thought it was better not to try to do so? Bumper Cars: the right and back disposition of the germans was almost spooky. Fair, and nice in that it was unexpected--so the challenge is to take advantage of the unexpected. The left was not terrible. The key is that I sensed well enough not to try to take the center (couldn't, was my sense, once their main asset arrived. I was happy to only lose one tank before understanding the situation), so left most of that company resting for the scenario. Not trying to move every unit every turn was something I felt was being taught to me in this campaign. Razorback Ridge: Since that is the only one I disected minutely, I want to mention something that you may appreciate: It looks as though the german flanking units come onto the board in stages. If that is true (anyone can confirm that?) it means that the clever scenario designer was giving an ingenious defense to the germans from artillery--if you hit a flank early and hard with artillery, you still would not permanently silence that flank. If that was the intent, it is devilish. Here is a Campaign bonus I would like: win the campaign, and it would unlock the designers notes and comments.

Thanks for all the responses. Part of the reason I started this thread was "give heart" to some of those playing the campaign. It would be very easy for someone to be so traumatized by some of the scenarios that they might never pick up CMBN again. That would be unfortunate. The maps alone in this Campaign are astonishing--tactical challenges almost every 100 meters, seemingly intentionally placed, often only seen when one gets close. And the time element: for a 90 minute scenario, I doubt I even keep up a pace of 20 minutes per turn. That means at least 30 hours. Since I played through the long route, I must have put in 150-200 hours. That is why I posted now, instead of waiting to finish the last one--it could be a week or so, depending on my schedule. La Haye du Poits: Dakuth: Where you are is what I was concerned about if I tried to go straight through. Ironically, that may give fewer casualties. I only have 2 platoons, out of 6, which are major damaged. Most are minor, with 2-3 squads which are almost full strength. I am also getting very little resistence, about 1/2 hour in, with a center-left push. No artillery coming at me. Could my inflicting of german casualties finally be showing results. Suggest avoiding the mines, except when going to the Outskirts. Even there, it is wicked hearing that Thump and seeing a man injured. Fortunately, that seems to mark the mines, so others will go around (primitive, but effective...feels like a 1941 Russian tactic.) I am just about to clear Outskirts, with a loss of 1 squad. Moved two platoons that way. Don't even try forcing an M8 or other AFV through the mines--unless you are willing to either lose them or restart a lot (which most of us don't like doing, I would guess, in that situation.) And when my Pioneers arrived, I almost fell on the floor and praised the heaven. Finally, I can open up the bocage without expending all my HE ammo (lost my engineers in College/University)!!!! The center, away from the mines, is open. I am so nervous/excited about the end assault in this Campaign that I had to step away, gather my thoughts, think about the situation with pleasure, post here a little--I want to enjoy the last hours of this this exhausting, but immensely satisfying campaign. Part of the reason I don't ever like to "peak" at the enemy ahead of time, is that one of my favorite times is just before main enemy contact. Anything is possible at that moment, and one needs to run all the probablities. Once contact is made, and increasing enemy disposition/location information is known, the potential becomes the actual, and then only one potential situation is there to be fought against.

******************Spoiler.....not really. This is a commentary on the Campaign, for those who are having trouble with it and search the forum, or just to compare strategies. I am on the last battle. This is not designed to teach people to crush the scenarios--the idea is to have as difficult a tactical battle as possible and still prevail. Hopefully, some of my comments will help people enjoy the Campaign more. Warrior. WEGO. Straight from CM1. Personal rules: Try to win first time through. Minimal of replays. Minimal of cease-fire peaking at the AI forces. As you will see, this Campaign taxed my priniciples in these areas. #1 Over Hill and Dale. A warm up. With the AI I drew, a drive through the trees, right to left, 1000 to 12 score. Just like a small CM1 scenario. Bruhahahaha.....[i imagine the Campaign designer cackling] #2 School of Hard Knocks. Your Battalion is not in position. Flat open terrain. If the enemy is there in force, the fields will be red with American blood. Do you feel lucky? This is more a Psych test than a tactical test: Are you willing not to win. I went for the bridge with my engineers--one of the few times that listening on these forums have deceived me. Much damage to the engineers, finished off in the next battle. Moved my tanks forward--lost 2 and then withdrew. Pounded the Germans with artillery. Called my Regimental Commander: it ain't happening. Draw Go for the draw (take the bridge with non-engineers). On these Boards, I here that people can put people in the river bed, and flank to the right for a win. I don't see it--not without horrendous casualties. I here one can win by just bounding the germans with artillery and tanks, but what fun would that be, because then you would miss... #3 University of Hard Knocks. My favorite. One takes the fighting end of a battalion across a map in 90 minutes. Key here: patience. After pushing the pickets back and pounding the ridge, I jumped into the trenches at the top...I got them! Think: US Civil War, Battle of the Crater. Unless the patch strengthened the trenches considerably, be careful what you put in there. I would suggest not going for the back left objective. Minor Victory, playing the last few turns over. Stay to the left. Patience. Patience. Gem: if you wait until the last 10 turns or so, it gets dark enough that you units can get to the exit road without being pounded by overwatch. #4 Crossroads. A little sorbet between main courses. A very nice use of Recon stuff--which I otherwise find fairly useles in a main battle area. I did cross country. #5 Bumper Cars I took the first Company to the left, the second to the right. The map maker should get the Minatour award for Cretan Labarynths. Brilliant. One flanking operation after another. Got 6/7 VP areas--not the center one, which I think is intentionally not supposed to be taken. Major. Does killing all these Germans help me in the future? Not sure. #6 Razorback Ridge The only one that I played entirely through twice, and cease-fired afterwards to look at the situations. And I still can't figure out, even theoretically, how to beat it. My suggestion: Go for the draw, it gets you through. I fought off the counter-attack at the shed, took the 3rd platoon back to the Farm House, and clobbered a bunch of units there. My Tank Destroyers and the rest of my units then came across the Field of Doom . Minor loss, and thus campaign loss. But if I went back to just after my 3rd platoon hit the farmhouse, and stopped there---Draw. I am through. La Haye du Poits. How will this end? I did not like the idea of coming across the open field, so my first try was to run everything to the right and toward the Outskirts. Nah. And there really is no mine field in the middle. Guess I will do it like the briefing outlined--maybe my previous fights have weakened the German Regiment. Hope the above increases your enjoyment of this fascinating and challenging Campaign, which has kept me occupied for much of two months.

Yes, yes. Part of why I had so much trouble with Ridge in the C and F campaign is that I don't think I've learned to use my artillery correctly, or to avoid enemy artillery. I have never used my mortars direct fire, so I clearly need to learn that. That being said, I can't remember a CM1 scenario (or Squad/Panzer Leader, or ASL, or CC) where I spent so much time, as I do with some CM2 scenarios, thinking how I could win without hardly using troops and only using artillery. Again, perhaps realistic. Some high percentage of casualties in WW2 were from artillery? But takes some getting used to.

I have a similar style to this. I am also finding that letting the AI pick targets, particularly for my MGs, seems to be better than "targeting". The AI seems to see targets in a WEGO turn better than I could, and will move fire around if a target, perhaps, hides--which is a smart thing for it to do. Back to the CM1 to CM2 thing, I seem to worry more about ammo than I did in CM1. Not sure why....longer scenarios? In CM1 I would sometimes just expend the unit's ammo, and then pull it out of the line, but I find that I don't want to do that here. I don't like being so worried about ammo, so I am just going to have to get over that. As for new elements: the Acquire, in my opinion, is brilliant. Jeeps and trucks now have a use. I am less (I realize others will markedly disagree) keen on the Buddy Aid. I find it is a distraction, and don't really enjoy it. Too cute. Too much like a StimPack. But maybe it will grow on me.

As someone who moved directly from CM1 to CMBN, I agree with some of the posters that note that I am in a group which may initially have problems adapting (but, as my sig shows, I am an enthusiast for CMBN) There is something, realistic, about the feel of CMBN which is due to the 1:1 representation, and the less probabalistic calculation of injury/loses. I am still trying to put my finger on it, but the result seems to be a much higher casualty rate, at least for the attacker. This comes, I think, from the CMBN world that if you can't hit something, you can't hit it--pouring more firepower on the target is of no help. So we have this: German unit behind some bocage. I have 2 allied squads pouring fire into the german unit area. Maybe for a couple of minutes. Then I run an Assault team at the german unit, and they all get killed/casualtied in one burst of enemy fire.....because...if just one of the german soldiers remains unsuppressed with an automatic rife or some grenades to clobber many soldiers running across a field. Realistic. By playing CM1 so much, I had a sense of how long it took to "whittle down" an enemy unit, such that it fled or was ineffective. I don't have that, yet, in CMBN. In "University" (Courage and Fortitude), I spent 2 minutes with a MG directly hammering an AT gun. I could see the bullets bouncing off the AT gun shield (Cool!). Maybe I then left it alone for a turn. In CM1 I can't remember any AT surviving such a blasting. But in a turn or 2, it let out a blast, and completely destroyed a squad moving down a road between some bocage. Probably not an unrealistic possibility. But, geez, "guess I ain't in CM1 anymore", I muttered to the screen. The, what seems to be to me, much more lethal small-stuff artillery was another jolt. (The seemingly ineffective foxholes--maybe changed with the patch?--was a "pleasant" surprise as the attacker.) I am learning to Hide more (just letting an infantry unit move, and then stop in a kneeling position seems to be suicidal), go slower, and split squads a lot (scout teams are great, but then I end up with a lot of squads missing two soldiers. So, for some people, some of the issue may a change in what they had thought with normal tactics, some of it may be the bocage (Allied troops did not like it then, for a reason), some may be the very tough (for some of use) C and F campaign--which could have a "Minen!" warning or something on it, some may be the infantry heavy nature of what I have seen so far--in 44 there seems to be a swarm of AT and infantry AT stuff around, such that my AFVs always seem more hunted than hunter. But, technically, this seems like a very polished game, and in a year it is likely....or, later, when we get T34s on the steppes....all this will be forgotten, and we can go back to arguing if the exhaust pipe on a Tiger with certain unit markings is correct (with people posting pictures and translations from german wartime maintenance records to make their point.)

As one poster has already mentioned, given that the point costs are somewhat arbitrary, I guessed that this was revenge for the supposed super Stug of CM1. (If I peeked over into the CM1 forums, I wouldn't be suprised if there was still an active thread on Stug frontal armor supposed mismodeling....wait for it...wait for it....someone is going to pose an indignant post on my use of the word "supposed.")

I am at the same place, just starting the scenario. 100 minute scenario--both exciting and exhausting to think about. If I had to do it over with (and I may do it over) I would have started C and F at Veteran rather than Warrior. In any case, I hope to do a Commentary on it when I finish this last battle--whatever the outcome.....whenever that may be......indeed I may have already lost by losing Ridge, but the campaign seems to let me play the last scenario anyway.

A very long thread. My humble suggestion would be to either sticky something, or....and I really like this idea...have uprgradable downloadable manuals. Or, fortunately for BFC if there are a lot of customers, you are going to get the same questions every 1-2 months.

For scenarios, I think there is already a known solution for the defenders, seen in Razorback Ridge in Courage and Fortitude: bring the defenders on incrementally. Let the pre-planned bombardment begin--we will show up later.

I can see both sides. The challenge, I think, with so much about CM2, is the East Front. US/Commonwealth versus German in Normandy is the little chick of Modern Warfare. Russian units in 1941?.....make C2 connections difficult?...something like that. (BTW, even BFC, except in mods, did not do WW2 Poland or Germany invading France. Get a move on! You all have work to do, sir.)

OMG you are making me sweat. Infantry without effective AT assets. Artillery which takes 8-10 minutes to call in, and is inaccurate. Finns. Can't we make time move faster!

Thank, YankeeDog. The one thing that still puzzles me is the amount of .45 ammo available--not that much, like 50-60 rounds per gun-- and the Thompson/Grease gun. You would think those weapons would run through a lot of ammo. But is that Working as Designed? Quick sprays for close distance targets? And does that mean that units without Thompson/Grease guns or pistols do not need .45 ammo, or will a rifle soldier soldier switch to a pistol if, for instance, he is out of rifle ammo?

Incredible RL information! Now for in-game CMBN stuff: I had been pulling ammo out of jeeps and trucks, and realize I may have been pulling the wrong stuff out for the wrong units. In particularly, I was looking at Garand rifles and thinkng "carbine". I was also looking at .45 ammo and thinking it was only for pistols. But is this correct?: M2: Garrand, (non.50 cal) MGs, sniper rifle, and BAR Carbine ammo: only for M1 Carbine .45 ammo: for pistols, Thompson, and Grease gun If that is correct, the tricky issue for me is noting the difference between whether has Garrands or Carbines, and if there is a Thompson/Grease gun in the unit.

I actually very much enjoy this forum. There are people who post here that know military equipment, battle history, and military tactics to a meticulous degree. And many of the posters, including of course those from BFC, have clearly thought very deeply about the details from CM2 (and how to, practically, survive as a company)--the changes from CM1 to CM2 are monumental, intricate, and...I think have worked remarkably well. That being said, the emotional sensibility of the forum seems more Von Braun or Admiral Rickover, not Baudelaire or Shakespeare. From what BFC puts out: Note the CMBN manual does not have a chatty "Designer's Notes", expressing feelings and frustrations, and giving the wishes and hopes of the staff--something I have seen, in contradistinction, in "Civilization" manuals. To some of the posters: "bad people on this forum"? Really. Can one type that without giggling?--and I mean no disrespect to User38, who I am going to presume is a fine person. (If nothing else, the ironic "Something Profound" is sort of fun.) "Fanboy"? Ouch? My opinion, for what it is worth, is that BFC can be grumpy (I am sure they could list why that would be justified), but very responsive. I don't think it is too kind to say, but only based on looking at CM2, that the people who have worked on it are smart, dedicated, and passionate about their creation. And the players of CM2? If they are doing this rather than playing Angry Birds, there is a certain similar passion there, also. So, let's all shake hands and make nice. Or, fire up another scenario and continue killing people. (Very relaxing after a long day of work, helping people.)

I have just begun to concentrate on Ammo. The Garrand, it uses what ammo? The manual talks about "Springfield" loads, but I hope it uses .30cal M2--whatever that is. Is that correct? ("Search" did not help me)

Thank you, Agua, for your thoughtful reply. I had not noticed that the TD MGs only fire rearward. That is very important information. They were firing, but maybe it was just AP rounds. If I turn them around, the MG may be more suppressive than the AP rounds? .....you are correct that it took all the HE to open the hedgerow. "working the second platoon...around the crossroads then coming into the field from the back": doesn't that bring into plan the german flanking units to the left? And did you win College and not do University? My units are fairly banged up from going through University. I thought, maybe, the Germans were also, but there are enough units confronting me that I am not sure if that is correct.

+1 Every line--I could not have written it better.

Razoback Ridge, potential strategy guide *********************************************** Even going around the long way, through University, this has not been easy. Minor defeat the first time through, and I have had to do post-hoc analysis on what appears to be a bit of a puzzle scenario. As usual with this (remarkable) Campaign, I think you need to analyze each scenario carefully ahead of time to get the big picture, curb one's ambitions, and conserve troops and ammo. To wit: (Warrior, WEGO) Not yet fully implemented, but this is my current plan: 1. With the AI defense I drew, my troops in the Toolshed could not take one step toward the back objectives without getting destroyed. 2. The scenario seems designed to force you down the middle, through the Field of Doom . That takes the Flanking German forces out of play (They are actually noted as Flanking forces in their unit description, and the point value for killing them is low) 3. After the Toolshed forces fight off the attack coming up the hill, send them down the bocaged alley, then cross into the woods, and come at L Butte from behind. (More specifically, and this is what I need to change in my second run through, take out the HQ on the second floor, firing through the windows--first, befor the next step) 3. Positition a squad, and the MG in the bocage on either side of the large La Butte building, and decimate the out-in-the-open defenders. 4. Likely I will use my mortar module to try to destroy the first La Butte building and its defenders. Granted, that will likely leave me mortar-light in the last scenario, but I think I must take La Butte in Razorback or I will not be able to proceed. 5. The main force MGs are positioned at the bocage of the Field of Doom , and fire at any identified enemy forces around that field. 6. When the AFVs enter, have them blow a hole in the bocage, and enter the Field (those who have engineers...great. Next time through, I will be more careful with them in College). Suppressing/killing/driving off anything which could be infantry AT--which is surprisingly tough. 7. Then the AFVs and MGs suppress/kill drive off anything anything around the field which if plain infantry. 8. Move platoons to the left bocage and fire over to the Crossroads, to drive away infantry their. 9. Then, maybe, take other platoons, cross the Field (the mine at the exit of the Field is ...just cruel), enter La Butte, and perhaps cross over to Crossroads. [Of course, one scoops all the ammo out of the jeeps/truck--something I neglected to do in Bumper Cars] I think that if you take La Butte, keep the Toolshed, kill enough troops and HQs in La Butte, one might have a Marginal Victory. The above positions me to take Crossroads if that is needed for the Victory. The point is that it would not be worth the loss of even a squad to move the Victory to Tactical. I have been playing this Campaign since the game was released. If I get through this thing, and if I then played it through completely again to try in order to master some of its nuances (don't know that my nerves could stand it--it is somewhat exhausting)(I would still take the loss in School. University is the one I want to most replay--loved watching the troops file up to cross the bridge, and I think I could lose a lot fewer forces in replay), I think this one Campaign could carry me almost into the release of the next module.