DavidFields

As usual, I agree with Wombie. I regard HT as movile MGs, placed well behind the front line an often employed late in the scenario. This is one of the rare instances were coming to CMBN from CM1, rather than CMSF may be an advantage.

I am on Warrior, and like it. I want the realistic arty times, but don't want the needless clicking. As it is, it is a little "gamey" in WEGO to click on most of your units to see what they see. But since it actually matters which units see what, I can live with that.

Even without knowing the scenario, I would agree with the preplanned barrage. You can decide, with it, where you do not want the enemy to be. If they are not there, it is a waste as far as killing the enemy. But if you pick a tactically valuable location, that is the compensation. And with the delay, one can plan for the enemy "not to be" at a certain critical place at a certain time of the attack. You are getting me very interested in that scenario. As with many of the Campaigns/Scenarios that come with the game, it sounds as though it is designed to make a teaching point. [Next up, need to make fun scenarios--Band of Brothers stuff, or Saving Private Ryan, etc.]

Infantry before tanks, I think that is the classic vet advice for these simulations. It may seem crazy, since everyone wants to use the iron beasts to break the enemy. But tanks are often, in WW2 at least, with some exceptions, mobile HMGs with HE support, behind the infantry. That is why the Mrk4 german tank is my favorite--you can criticize its armor thickness, but it just seems to me an iron beast very suited to actually getting the job done.

Thanks Wombie. Part of my mistake here was of the kind I don't like to make: a conceptual tactical error. In specific, the frontage that a Battalion+ should be attacking on. I shifted all my forces to the left "concentrating them", near the town entrance, then punched a few holes in the bocage. But that meant I was putting a lot of units through a small opening, and which still had constricted frontage once units got through. That delayed movement, and fragmented units. Tanks/trucks had nowhere to go. It has taken me a long time to unjumble them, and they are mostly still at the center left, though on the town side of the bocage. Give the scenario designer credit: I had 1/314 on my left (or, 1/315...whichever I was not). If I had "stayed in my lane", they likely could have handled the town entrance VL. Meanwhile, the company that went through outskirts could have swept away the picket units in the center, attacking them from the back or flanks, and my main forces could have come down the center, punched a few holes in the bocage, come through in good order in the center, with my companies stretched from the far left of the town entrance across to Outskirts, on the city side of the bocage. Would have been a nice tactical positition, and appears to be consistent with the scenario design. Of course, for many of us, we like to "break" the scenario, by taking unusual routes. These scenarios seem intensely designed to not allow that--as I am sure the real defenders would have. The feeling of being trapped, and out thought/maneuvered (by defensive positioning of forces), without recourse........not everyone is going to enjoy that. I think in this thread that shows. So, this scenario has given me a much better idea of the attack frontage of an American infantry battalion--can't run it like company attack. The psych-out part though, is forcing an attack plan over open terrain (which, as I recall, one was supposed to get through quickly, intimating great danger). After going though a couple of scenarios in this Campaign, I would have had to be drinking whatever Grant drank in the American Civil War to push myself down the center field, even if I believed, which I really did not, that it was unmined. If I had had two infantry companies, with supporting units, caught out in the open in the middle field, under a sustained artillery barrage............there are times like that when the injuries seem too real to keep "playing". [Thank goodness I don't actually command troops. And I have tremendous respect for the Courage and Fortitude of those who do.]

Wow, you need to reduce your bad habits, or you will never make it to 50. I think you should give up....the guitar.

Up-date. Data point. 21 minutes left in La Haye and.....I haven't had the heart to make another move in the last 10 days. Part of the problem is that I now realize how channeled my tanks are. I actually have some of them just about stuck in the backyards of some of the buildings, trying to find a flanking path--to no avail. I am not sure I will ever get any of them in the square where the cathedral is. I see an AT gun to my distant right, but don't have an HQ which can see it to call in artillery at this time. There is still a Stug in the square, flush up against a building--as usual, extremely well-placed units by the scenario designer. Theoretically, I could get an anti-infantry AT unit in the building next to it, if there is a back door. I don't think I can use bazookas in buildings? That hurts. Maybe I will just clear the "Exit" VL and call it a day--though my units are out of position, since I had planned to push centrally toward the cathedral. As usual with this Campaign, I have to try to calculate if stopping may be better than pushing forward and getting a bunch of causualties. Typically over the last 10 days, I fire up the Save game, look at it......and then decide to go play some EU3. Perhaps my finish on La Hoye will go better than expected: 21 turns could be the length of an entire scenario. It is almost pitch black, maybe that will help me Though I would tend to think night battles favor the defender. In any case, I will post the result, and my final observations in my "C and F good" thread. Right now, though, this seems to be the hot thread, and I am in a bit of a slump.

The simplicity/complexity trade-off seems to me at the heart of these simulations, and is likely a matter of taste. I remember one space civ game, can't remember the name, where one set policy sliders and the AI did almost all the details for you. Some people liked that, most did not. Theoretically, one could pick an entire company, give an order to take a hill/town/forest, and the friendly AI could make the assaults--but besides needing massive coding, actually moving the squads and planning the company assaults is sort of what most of us actually want to do. On the other hand, I still have not warmed to potentially splitting squads into 3 teams. Part of it may be the large battles I have been playing(got to force myself to finish C and F and get to something like Devil's Descent), part of it may be that some people really like focusing down on the individual soldiers, and seeing the animations of 3 guys running into a house, thowing grenages, and individual combat is fun--where I still mostly enjoy the focus on the squad level. Just went over to Tiger Tiger on CMBB just to "relax". Never played it before, but I am struck how much easier it felt to throw platoons across the board. (also nice to see the fall folliage) Of course one can't get the balance "right" for everyone, in all their different moods.

Excuse me. Just wandered in from CMBN forum. I keep coming over here to see if perhaps I could try CMSF. I have no experience with Modern Warfare. I find a paragraph like the above completely incomprehensible to me. Will the manual which comes with the game give me an understanding of "FIST-V", "13F", "MOS", "NCOIC", etc?

52. Figure I will retire at 62. That should be just about when the CM2+ Russian Front Consolidated 41-45 Massive Multiplayer edition will be able to be downloaded to my goggle-enhanced-to-give-a-360-degree-view-of-the-steppes rig, which will be 2000 faster than the one I have now. The Brain-wave control activated version will not quite be ready...though it will have been promised by BFC years earlier....when people using the motion activated controls started accidently hurting themselves when then hit walls while directing artillery strikes. And....certain...forum members (our sigs will all be 3D representations as us in a historic general's uniforms) will be arguing about the Russian soldier's shaving habits, and how battles in the afternoon inaccurately simulate the stubble of the combatants. [ok, it is true, BFC let me peak at their strategic business plans --question, will "smilies" still exist then?] Personally, I think BFC should be more ambitious than that--particularly if the value of their company 10 years from now is, as is likely, approaching Microsoft's.

"Victory level determined by overall campaign score". Does your program detail how this score is determined?

1. If the platoon in the woodshed is intact, potentially one could get to some rear victory locations. Or roll back to the farmhouse (which is what I did) and inflict casualties there. 2. My main force stayed in the middle (and most of it uncommited to the battle) and caused enough casualties , (with the maneuver above) for a draw. As with a number of scenarios in the Campaign, sometimes less is more. If you get through this scenario, I think you will have a victory in the campaign--unless you take massive losses in the last scenario. I have another thread on this Campaign which if you search will give you more ideas. I don't really think there is a "spoiler" for RR. Even with complete knowledge, it is tough.

Broken, to be encouraging: I think if you can get by Ridge, even with your losses in Hard Knocks, you will be able to get a win--unless by not doing University (or if you skip Bumper Cars) the enemy in the last battle is much reinforced. That would be interesting to know. Not sure if by winning School it will be a greater win than if you had not.

I suspect it is working as intended. It could be that the scenario is designed such that moving the tanks across the bridge is not desirable. If you act as though that is correct, you may actually be helping yourself. And the whole bridge might be thought of as a trap for your engineers. Some people might find that frustrating, others, enjoy the slap. You can win, I can attest, without them. The Campaign is relatively strong in its attack channelling. [Edit: The WAD is only a guess, in that I doubt they would mis-code this. There seems, per your data, to be a slight advantage to having a minefield marked, but not as nearly impressive as one might expect/want/badlywant/computergameplayexpect. One also cannot remove mines, again, as I understand, a realistic expression of the time available.]

Very good response, every one. I had no idea the AT guns would be able to suppress the trenches. IIRC, their ammo was anti-tank, so I thought it was useless. Another reason for me to play University again....sometime. Ah, the attrition win. An interesting thought. But we have no meters to gauge that? Granted, that is realistic, but with the "reinforcement that is never slated to arrive" trick, even killing everything on the map may not trigger it? I have mixed feelings about this. Sounds like the last scenario is a Minor Victory, unless one overwhelms the enemy. Many people, I would guess, would not like that, since they could cease-fire at turn 1. But, of course, they would miss the fun of playing--which is sort of the objective. A Panther.....a Panther.....this is why I like the forum. That gives me something to worry about, a goblin, without providing too many specifics. Indeed, it is not clear if that information will be more likely to allow me to win, or to lose because I will become less daring. Perfect. [Pssst...tell me....did a larger win on the last scenario give you a bigger Campaign win. Not clear why that should remain a secret.]

Go Dakuth, Go! Through the center, blow the bocage! 76 minutes in. Turns out Stugs are not invulnerable--one of my Shermans took one one, mano a mano and won. Closing in on the Cathedral. In a previous post, I said that there was a tactical challenge every 10 meters. Not quite true. They are spaced at 150-200 meter intervals, with bocage and buildings enough to make an isolated action. Stick with it! Avoid the mines....turns out to be a red herring. Break into the Town Entrance....and then have fun.

Look, two of us, at least, made the exact same error in interpretation. I am not saying the briefing needs to be clear--part of my point is that people have different tolerances for the unknown. But if it was supposed to be clear that the center was unmined, it was not. And even if it was, one would assume the Germans would have the open area TRPed and set for ambush. Thus, the proposed plan in the brief sounded crazy, and like the previous poster a right hook through the Outskirts, staying in more protected terrain seemed much lower risk. Two of us, neither likely rookies, looked at the briefing and map and came to the same conclusion. And if I had engineers earlier, and knew how to mark mines better, that is the route I would have gone. As it was, I restarted, tried to center approach, and encountered no artillery (? from dealing out some damage in earlier scenarios). As it is, you have a final scenario which takes 35+ hours (Wego--can't imagine one could real time this), which the first 7-10 hours is maneuver (except for moving toward Outskirts), and then involves meticulous combat against a very well designed defense (thankfully, I took out 2 of the Stugs in Bumper Cars. Either the AI or the designer is spectacular in placing TDs.) Can't imagine that is everyone's cup of tea. It is sort of a romp, if one follows the plan. [something in the briefing like: "Really, your Superior insists you stick to the plan] The channeling is harsh (impassable terrain to vehicles right and left). Casualties are going to be high (not a problem for CMBB guys, but CMSF types may be disturbed by all the wounded one is going to look at lying on the ground most of the scenario). As with this whole Campaign, I would mark it with a skull and crossbones, or a black diamond (if that is a generally understood sign from skiing), You Have Been Warned (even at low difficulty levels, there are a lot of units for beginners to work with.) I am now 75 turns in. Yes, I have learned to have limited expectations. (Forget about the right rear VP areas in University), that I have to pick my "knife" from all of what I was given (AT guns in University--only reason to have them was to realize not to lose them?), deal with the vagueness of the reinforcement information (the soldier/tank/artillery graphics fudge a lot about the actual strength of what you are going to get), but it is a little unnerving not to know if there are different levels of Campaign Victory, and what is involved in obtaining them. Is a Total Victory possible? In what way? It would be silly to push ahead, take a lot of casualties, and then lose, rather than to just stop now and win. If nothing else, the first time through I tend to like the uncertainty, but is there a way for me to find out post hoc the structure of the Campaign? A "spoiler" sticky on the forum, for example. My guess is that to explain all the nuances of this Campaign would be an enormous document--one enjoyable to read.

JonS, I really liked this Campaign. I will just note that I made exactly the same mistake initially on La Hoye: --done know the depth of the minefields--or something like that, I interpreted as those two green areas being only what I could see of the minefields, and that they were connected. I thought the briefing was being nice, and "hinting" at where other mines where. And just the concept of moving my force over open land in the center, after the beatings from School/University seemed so counter to good tactics, that I just could not make myself do it the first time. Part of why I started another thread on this Campaign was exactly to head off some of the comments you are seeing on this Thread. By giving some people a little bit more info on the scenarios, those that wish it, it may increase their enjoyment (decrease their frustration) and keep BFC customers. Otherwise, that Campaign is going to blast a number of people out of CM2, I fear. And it is not because the Campaign is not, in my opinion, excellent.

I don't entirely disagree with this assessment. You, and Phil, and Agua are all clearly experienced, and I respect your opinion. The flip side to very sophisticated maps is that they were very "channeled". Even University (THE ONE I WOULD LIKE TO DO OVER), the bocage on the left side left only a very small opening to advance troops. Wombie, I am pleased that I initially analyzed the map exactly as you seem to have done. Deep hook down the right. Who would want to try to advance across open ground? And I made the same "mistake" thinking the minefields were connected. But it seems that I was not as good at "clearing mines", lost some AFVs, and restarted--then realizing that the center was clear. Agua, I understand that the scenario feels like work. I tried to look at the glass half full--it has been like playing about 10 difficult scenarios in a row. I am at minute 27-28, and pull myself back to the computer. It is like enjoying running a marathon.

Wow, I completely disagree. I am 70 turns into the last scenario, and was just about to write an entry on how impressive that last campaign is. I am getting close to the town square and, yes, the enemy units are placed so that every 10s of meters of the way is a new tactical element to defeat. It is like dozens of smaller scenarios in one. OP, you likely got a minor victory in the last scenario, but a Major Victory in the Campaign? Yes, the last scenario is designed, it would appear, to be defeated by taking particular places in a particular order--I am just about to take the building south of the town center. The maps channel--but wouldn't the real defenders channel the attack, also? I stayed away from the mines (except toward Outskirts), blasted through the center bocage. One of my points would be this: don't you want a Campaign to last weeks to months? What is the rush? With 32 turns left, I figure I have 10-14 days of play still left, at the rate I go. Example of what I appreciate: the main road in town has obstructions in a checkboard pattern. Hmmm...I wondered...why? Could have been blocked off completely, but then no Allied armor could have gotten through. Hours/days later, I am trying to figure out how to get past the perfectly placed TDs of the Germans in the Town Center (likely can't clear the Exit zone, without clearing out the bottom of Town Center). Ah, I think, I will race my tanks, with their gyrostabilizers, to the side of the TDs, and get them from the flank. Ah....that is why the checkerboard obstructions are there....to prevent such a tactic. And as night falls in the last scenario, it is transformed into a night battle. As I have mentioned before, if there is a suggestion I would have, it would be to inform people of the difficulty and almost unimaginable length of this Campaign. I like sushi. If you don't, it does not make sense for you to accidently get into a sush restaurant--good or bad sushi, you will not like it. Even if you do not like this Campaign, it would, in my opinion, be factually incorrect not to notice that the scenarios and maps are highly sophisticated, with an incredible amount of military tactical knowledge built into them.

Too bad it is a PPEM game and you can't go back. Unless this is WAD, this is one of the few instances I think it would be legitimate to either go back to just before the FO died, or......... I am sure you have thought this evil thought... the rest of the FO team does a Bonzai charge.

[i think the small mortars are overly powerful, in effect, in CMBN. No, I don't have data. Just "feels" wrong. But let's see what the Commonwealth module brings, with the 2" mortars.]

Ok, not reading every page of this thread, and getting back to the OP. I think the challenge is to determine the minimal number of changes that could have occured, and the Germans still win. It is probably the obvious: 1. Launch the invasion of Russia one month earlier. 2. Push --less--far into Russia in 1941, +/- better winter gear, dig in for the winter. 3. Push everthing to the Northern Front in 1942 (sort of the original plan, but extended into the next year) 4. I am going to contend [and will enjoy the response] that most simulations would put taking Leningrad, and then attacking Moscow from the north (and west) in 1942 is the winning strategy. Yes, you need southern USSR or you tanks run dry. But best to take the USSR north to south, breaking that Leningrad strongpoint.

Bravo, phil stanbridge, for persevering. Many people would give up if they are not overwhelmingly successful--part of why I started this thread was to encourage......Fortitude (moving pixeltruppen around...hard to say that is Courageous.) And, intrerestingly, it may be possible that you will win the Campaign just by getting your battered troops to La Haye. I did, for me, a rare cease-fire early in La Haye. I did not look at the enemy troop concentrations (that would have spoiled the scenario for me), but to get a sense of the Campaign Victory conditions. Even at that point, it gave me, I think, a Major Victory. There are also a lot of reinforcements. I am very much into FOW. I have mixed feelings, however, about not being able to look into the original Campaigns (unless I am wrong...I can see the scenarios in the editor, but I can't see the Campaigns). It would be nice, even in retrospect, to see the triggers and Campaign victory condition level conditions. I like to fully appreciate the work of the designers. Again, I have mixed feelings. But something like C and F, I just ain't playing it 15 times in order to get data points to deconstruct it.

La Hoye du Puits 1/2 way through, 50 turns done, 50 to go. One of the "challenges" in this scenario is that you get your money's worth. At 15-20 minutes a turn, 100 turns is a lot. Am starting to warm up to it, now that I am at the town entrance. Looks like a classic house to house urban fight, with the classic Cathedral in center. Another intricate and well designed map. I don't know if I could have made it across the field, though, if there was german artillery coming at me and I needed smoke. My large formation movement was atrocious (a "casualty" of playing too late at night), and I am just now sorting things out. This seems like a mini-tutorial on bocage and "Blast", in addition to the city fighting. A great diversity of fights in this Campaign (except for the necessary plethora of bocage)