Mr. Tittles

Combined with time limits on planning turns, like online play, this would do a lot to shrink the Borg. I like the idea of absolute FOW. This reveals almost nothing to the player watching the movie. He gets to see enemy muzzle flashes and generic tanks (only if they are in the open). No details are given as to what is actually firing in most situations. If you watch the movie with no unit selected, thats what you get. If you click on a unit and watch the movie, you only get his perspective. After watching a movie from his perspective, you must give orders to that unit. The game could then feed you the next unit to watch from. The thought being, the game gives you units to issue orders to in the order oof units with the least amount of enemy info. No going back to edit orders either. So the Borg is decreased and the game is basically the same venue.

A daisy chain is a AT minefield. It isnt anything like a M18 Claymore mine. There is really nothing in the game that is like a M18 claymore besides cannister. It would be better to model the claymore with indirect arty. Have a FO with only 4-5 rounds. Use registration points.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/apm.htm http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/m18-claymore.htm

The M14 is somewhat small mine that is meant to incapacitate rather than kill. The M16 is a bounding betty type and the M18 claymore is the directional above ground 'mine'. Each is very different. The first two are true mines but the M18 is more a command detonated weapon. The claymore is more akin to grapeshot or cannister. AP minefields in the game are rather simplistic anyway.

Perhaps the next CMXX will be the Russian Front? Why patch the old Russian Front being the premise. Since there have been two Western Front games, it would also make sense to go back East. A Eastern Front game could showcase a better C&C model.

Thats cars u drive junk.

Eh, no one cars about that CW stuff.

It would be nice to see a list of whats being patched/added/subtracted? If its in final test, then that cant be unknown.

Also: Infantry should spot but not ID guns types. There is no reason this would unbalance the game. In fact, for AFV in really good cover, I would like them ID'd as guns sometimes. This is historical especially in terrain like bocage. So if you unleash a bunch of guns at once, the attacker (who is overcoordinated anyway) would not cherry pick targets which are greater threats.

The game could abstract out the borg slightly. An example is modeling the ATG as a 'small' target (smaller than they are modeled now). So 88s might be downsized a step. Another abstraction would be to have Tanks rotate turrets/hulls slowly (regardless of actual turret speed) when buttoned up when firing at ATG. This dampens the borg gang-target that happens when an ATG opens fire. This simulates the Tanks percieving the flash but not exactlty seeing the gun. If the gun is outside the turret 'covered-arc' (lets say 60 degrees for the sake of discussion), then its extra slow. An abstraction that levels the field a bit. ATG should also remain sound contacts longer and the exact position only revealed after several shots have been fired. A buttoned up tank group would then have to use area fire into likely positions. The ATG crews should pin easily and auto-hide also. This may save them from tanks that are buttoned. Also, why not a 'shoot n hide' order for ATG? Basically take one shot and then hide. The ATG, like flamethrowers, are victems of the one minute time scale of CM. Good abstractions can balance game limitations if applied in a wise manner. Sometimes they have unseen counter effects (playtesting bears this out).

That would be SeaMAK

The game could abstract out the borg slightly. An example is modeling the ATG as a 'small' target (smaller than they are modeled now). Another abstraction would be to have Tanks rotate turrets/hulls slowly (regardless of actual turret speed) when buttoned up when firing at ATG. This dampens the borg gang-target that happens when an ATG opens fire. This simulates the Tanks percieving the flash but not exactlty seeing the gun. If the gun is outside the turret 'covered-arc' (lets say 60 degrees for the sake of discussion), then its extra slow. ATG should also remain sound contacts longer and the exact position only revealed after several shots have been fired. A buttoned up tank group would then have to use area fire into likely positions. The ATG crews should pin easily and auto-hide. This may save them from tabks that are buttoned. Also, why not a 'shoot n hide' order for ATG? Basically take one shot and then hide. Good abstractions can balance game limitations if applied in a wise manner. [ November 02, 2004, 06:39 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

Well you are ignoring the fact that the 'squad' can see much more than he could in even the most modern technological battlefield possible. You say that the player 'sees' almost what a squad sees. Thats where you are fundamentally incorrect. The squad is seeing what he sees as well as everyone else. If you read aka_t sig line, you will see that the designers are going to move in a realistic direction for the game. They have already stated that borg spotting will be addressed somehow. Out of curiousity, were you in the Australian Army? I had a friend who was over there as a 'soldier trade' and he says that they stress very small unit actions. maybe you are trying to confuse these small squad (individual) tactics with WWII operations?

I don't want to see anything that limits the ability of the player to see, in real time, exactly what his squads see. Then what you are seeing right now is too much! No 'squad' could process as much info as is presented in the game under battle conditions. The total effect of Borg Spotting guarantees that. IRL, many vets say they never saw many Germans when the Germans were defending. They saw muzzle flashes mostly. If the game presented you with what really happens IRL, you would hate the game even more. Maybe you should play Close Combat. You can probably pick up a game on the cheap.

In any case, I find it hard to believe that if a US heavy 81mm landed on a turret roof and went off, it would not have some behind armor effect. Even if not penetration or spalling but some kind of concussive effect. The heavy 81mm HE content was 4 pounds (40%). In the case of most crewmen, their heads would be very close to the roof area. To have 4 pounds of TNT go off against metal must ring your bell if you are on the other side. Just a 10 pound metal weight alone coming down at a few hundred feet per second striking a plate over your head will shake you up. Many tankers did not wear helmets or just padded helmets perhaps. Headphones would give minimal hearing protection.

I would also like SOP to have other effects. An example is the morale boost Defend gives a platoon. This gives a nod to the fact that they are 'safer' and not being asked to hang thier rumps out in the breeze. Also, being in Defend could simulate resupply. The more turns in Defend, the more the chance that the ammo amount goes up. An abstraction but not a bad one in a game that has no resupply. I think that perhaps all platoon HQs should have expanded orders regardless of the SOP the platoon is under. An example is that a platoon HQ will always have Advance as an option but the length of the advance command given can be SOP dependant. So a platoon under SOP Defend could give its HQ an Advance order (trying to repel some units that have gotten into the trench) but the length is limited to 20m lets say. So the Defend unit DOES have some counterattack capability. This is in addition to random orders popping up in menus btw. So there is a chance that a squad could see an advance or even a assault 'bonus' order popping up. The same for orders like withdrawl or run. Not initiative but sometimes the shot up squad might have this instead of a heroic Assault command.

The funky thing about CloseCombat was that the C&C radius would penetrate woods the same as open areas. It did have a superior psych model for the troops and ordering them to do a little dance was not advisable. They would react in very realistic ways. Having a 'Corridor' 200m wide would not work in Bocage or built up terrain. Any C&C governing units without radios (most squads did not have radios), needs to understand this.

Of course in CM the squad is the smallest "tile". There are LMGs, Bazookas, truck crewmen, riflemen (sharpshooters). All of these are not squads.

Didnt Close Combat have some whacky circular command zone?

d. If the enemy has prepared fighting positions with overhead cover, only impact-fuzed and delay-fuzed rounds will have much effect. Proximity-fuzed rounds can restrict the enemy's ability to move from position to position, but they will cause few, if any, casualties. Impact-fuzed rounds cause some blast and suppressive effect. Delay-fuzed rounds can penetrate and destroy a position but must achieve a direct hit. Only the 120-mm mortar with a delay-fuze setting can damage a Soviet-style strongpoint defense. Heavy bunkers cannot be destroyed by light or medium mortar rounds. I would assume light bunkers could be destroyed by light or medium rounds.

In regards to Hoolamans idea.. What about a spread out advance up a wooded road. Several units have passed a house and nothing happens. Suddenly a LMG opens up on the next unit on the road from this house. The units up ahead, who are out of LOS now, can not react to this? They can only continue plowing along even though MG fire is in the rear? Sounds robotic. What about reinforcements? They come on the board in the middle of a fight. Can they be directed to the fight even though there is no LOS? I would hate to base anything on seeing enemies as spotting is in such need of repair to begin with!

Lets say there is a platoon in a trench position and its in Defend SOP. The platoon is activated and the Platoon HQ could attempt to either change to Attack or Movement SOP. It may feel that it is going to be over run. In one case, it feels the enemy can be beaten back. It may elect to try to go to Attack! In another case, its going to be overwhelmed. It may elect to try to get a movement order. In either case it would lose its morale bonus for being in Defend. Units can not stay in Attack indefinetely. They can stay in Defend for the whole scenario. [ October 31, 2004, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

A platoon can attempt to change its SOP once activated. But it is not guaranteed to take effect immediately, even be persmissible (HQ is broken, etc) and having higher HQ in LOS, radio contact DOES effect the outcome. Maybe you should reread the example. I think you are struggling with the need to improve the game and the desire to have a game that shows 'real' C&C. Infantry platoons are not independant entities and some of the discussion here assumes that everyone on the battlefield is some freewheeling Rambo. It just isnt so. In the US ETO, Companies were usually the smallest org that would go into battle. Anything smaller is usually just a patrol. Platoons acting in concert with other platoons would not just dash off and leave the others behind. They need each other for mutual survival. I tried to show that in the example where one platoon was covering the other. It has nothing to do with intelligence. Its the way things are done. If one platoon is supposed to cover another but decides rather that initiative means he should expose his platoon instead and leave the other platoon hanging in the breeze, then that platoon commander would get his ass kicked. Things are done by drills. I am using the abstraction of SOPs to simulate those drills. These things I am proposing are abstractions. Things like 'battlefield initiative' are the exception rather than the rule. Even a Platoon in Defend SOP could get an assault order. I went out of my way to show how that is being randomly generated in the example. If everyone is free to show this initiative, then it will be abused. Just like so many other elements of the game. Good abstractions are ones that produce battlefield feel and realistic consequences. Whats being abstracted here is multiple layers of command and reaction to enemy actions. [ October 31, 2004, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

I edited the example for clarity (hopefully). Basically the German platoons are: A platoon, has best progress and initiative example B platoon, Broken HQ example, Delay of SOP change example C platoon, Company HQ example, Responsive SOP change example Please go back to page 6 and review the example. [ October 31, 2004, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

The next turn is basically a firefight and the smoke is starting to clear. The major event is that the two StuGs roll forward and the Soviet ATG nails one in the side. The crew bails and the other StuG is hit and it decides to pop smoke and reverse back out of LOS. The StuG that was hit was the platoon HQ vehicle. The StuG 'platoon' is now under withdrawl SOP. This does not effect the StuG that was commandeered by the Bn HQ. The 'platoon' (actually one vehicle) consists of a Good order StuG that has a reverse string movement. Since he is in good order, the reverse string movement can be edited and dragged to a better location. The Arty starts to drop but the FO notices the mass of Soviet forces at the map edge. He can see what looks like a company in the open (he has scissorscopes). Should he move the barrage onto them? Will the Soviet Commander really risk leaving his position to gather forces to hold the farm? Will CMAK ever get its final patch? These and other tittilating questions may never get resolved... [ October 31, 2004, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]