treadgrease

k, fair enough, thanks.

Well of course treebursts will be a problem. As with most everything, there are positives and negatives. But in good coverage(woods/pines), more than likely, you won't be attracting any mortar/arty until you start shooting. If you put them in wheatfields or steppe then they will get spotted much easier, compared to woods/pines. Then probably get the attention of mortars and arty before the troops inside fire a single shot. Yes, no treebursts to worry about, but still. I don't buy it either. Something ain't right with your tests. Simply put, no tanks, buttoned or unbuttoned, will spot any gun(non-fired) hiding in good/wood/tallpines coverage. Unless of course maybe the gun is on the very outer edge of the cover tile and the tank is practically on top of it. </font>

Savegame, screenshot? I don't believe you, this is nonsense. Maybe you screwed up and accidentally placed the gun in open ground right next to the woods. The spotting routines are of course entirely seperate from the graphical representation, this doesn't mean anything. </font>

So the gun was also hiding, and the mission was not meeting engagement? (The gun had the camouflage bonus)? </font>

I'm sorry guys, been doing some testing, and the ai spotting routine is boooooogus I have two pics to show what I mean (tried posting them here, but always to small of size, hard to see). Be glad to email them to anyone. Anyway, Michael Dorosh's GD scenario, "Detraining at Lodz" Two buttoned up tanks, at over 800 meters, see an UNFIRED at gun, situated in woods, on a reverse slope. Magnifying to 16x, *I* couldn't see a single pixel of the at gun from either tank. Man, I love this game, but this really throws a wrench into it for me. [ November 11, 2004, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: treadgrease ]

Ok, thanks for the tips guys. But I gotta be honest; a lot of it sounds like ways to beat the game/game flaw, much more than real life tactics. But I'll give it a go.

Hehe, sounds like me If you haven't yet, give Christopher Reich's books a try; I like them better than Clancy myself.

Thanks Robert........you a sub fan too ?

Thanks, gave me some ideas to try here. Oh, and I was actually meaning at guns in the defense. Like you said, they're made for ambushes imo. Anyway, going back to the scenario I first noticed this at (mainly because its one of the first I've played <g>), I just can't believe a buttoned up tank crew could spot any at gun in woods/trench (added a trench for a test) at half a mile or more. Hell, irl, it would be hard for an unbuttoned crew, even a tc standing in the turret, unless he happened to be looking at exactly the right spot beforehand, at the above distances, imo, and even then.... But I think I'll mess around a bit. Moving a 75 mm and up at gun will give the boys a good workout anyway <g>

k, thanks. Thats the rub though; what good is an at gun that historically was routinely used(i.e., not even thier max range) for much longer range encounters than the arcs suggested ? I mean, that was their whole advantage, besides small size; ability to close with the enemy before it was right on top of them. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you; what arc ranges are you thinking of ? I.e., for a 75 and 88 mm pak.

Keep in mind too, when you do decide to actually fire the guns, it will be much harder to keep them hidden after doing so, but it is possible. The AI tanks will expose themselves again. But obviously that ain't gonna work against another human player, he'll just do area fire on the gun. Also, IMHO, another valid flaw in the CM games is the spotting ability of tanks. I think most would agree. It's just way too good, especially for buttoned up tanks. </font>

Do you have them hiding? Cover arcs? Did the guns fire at all? My guns can hide pretty much forever as long as there in cover and no infantry is close by. A.K.A. Borg spotting. We all hate it and there's not much you can do about it. It's considered a valid flaw in the CM games. </font>

Newbie to this game, though not to wargaming. Problem: seems like at guns are basically useless, as they are unrealistically spotted right away, to easily. A problem in most games, to be sure. Did a test against buttoned tanks only, had them in open, in woods, and in woods in trenches. No difference. Are my assumptions correct, or what am I missing ? Just sure seems the ai tanks can spot at guns much to easily, and once one ai tank spots them, seems like every tank on the field has an instant radio message about it <g>

Always wanted to try this, but don't have excel. Figured I'd give the printout sheets a try, but a problem; for some reason, I can't get the gif files to print correctly. Always end up clipped off, shortened, etc. Viewing and printing in Print Shop Pro. Ideas ?

Hmmm....oh well, cya.