Mr. Tittles

[ October 02, 2003, 01:13 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

It is probably assumed that anything faster than a given optimal speed causes the casing to desintegrate prematurely. </font>

If you look at some of the numbers listed in the game as far as HE penetration, its probably just based on velocity. The game lists identical numbers for the panther gun and the soviet gun mounted on the marder. Both have velocitys close to 700m/s for HE. Both show 61mm penetration at 100 meters and 500 meters, which is strange. It does decrease at greater ranges. The Panzer IV website does not list the angle on these penetration values. Anyone know if it is 60 degrees?

I think the HE and HESH are very different. The HESH has to have a low velocity also if I recall correctly (this may have been solved though). The HE can be high velocity but I am starting to think that the HE detonation must be delayed. Rexford mentioned this with the 90mm AP rounds with small HE. The shell must be on its way through before the blast. The blast will jettison much of the mass of the shell (especially in HE) and interrupt penetration. The HESH has a very soft nose, the HE has a very hard nose. The HESH is designed to direct the blast towards the front; HE blast/shrapnel goes to the sides. HESH spreads the explosive into a putty-pancake against the armor and then detonates it, HE always has the front part of the shell between the HE and armor (unless the shell has penetrated). HE can still can pop rivets, crack welded armor, blow away antennas, etc. I would venture a bet that cast armor is very effective at defeating HE. HESH is more a modern round I believe. The British still use it as a multipurpose round in tank guns and claim very longe range kill/soft-kill with it in rifled tank guns.

I read in a book on Tiger tanks that the tiger I had an electric firing mechanism. The back of the cartridges had a circuit element that would heat up quickly and fire the shell instantaneously. The ground mounted 88s did not have this. if the Tigers were to use Flak shells (which they could probably get from army flak bns) they would have to be compatible with the electric setup. These time fuze shells would also have to be preset for distance.

http://www.752ndtank.com/TheRock.html this website is interesting as far as HE vs armor. 1. a sherman tank takes an indirect fire 105mm HE round. Little damage is done (it was not a top hit but hit the side of the turret) but a major sub-system is taken out; the power traverse. 2. Same tank battles a stug III at close range. Sherman fires a HE at stug. Supposedly not penetrating but cracks armor. followup AP round devastates stug. If CMXX is developed, I would like to see these type of effects. HE taking out things like radio, power traverse, crew casualties, etc. Crews could also be stunned, backing away, "pinned" etc. [ September 30, 2003, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

The Panzer IV website: A funnything about this data; it suggests that reinforced concrete is tougher than steel? Perhaps a typo? [ October 01, 2003, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

Some interesting math: Take the ratio of point blank penetration of 75mmL24/75mmL48 (30/52)=0.576 Take the ratio of point blank V^2 (75L24_vel^2/75L48_vel^2)=0.583 it can be surmised that velocity squared accounts for penetration increase. One could also extrapolate-surmise that the 75mmL48 HE round at 2500 meters is traveling at 420m/s. a little math suggests the L24 HE is traveling at 297M/s at this same range.

This is a very astute observation. The data from the Mk IV website also sheds some light because: 1. L24 gun in table is using same HE(34) round 2. Its HE velocity is less than L43/L48 (420m/s vs 550m/s) 3. its HE penetration is much less and also decreases with range. This particular HE round has a very large high explosive content from the data. could this then have thinner steel construction? the L24 has a higher HE velocity than its AP round also; interesting. I would think SOME of the penetration is caused by the HE explosion. Since KE is 1/2MV^2, velocity is a primary factor in HE penetration from this data. If the velocitys at the ranges were known, a formula could be graphed. Face hardened armor would be very effective at defeating these HE shells I would think. High velocity HE rounds also have a tendency to crack welds. russian test firing of 100mm, 122mm HE rounds on panther/tigerII armorcould crack the welds and make the vehicle structurally unsound so that it would be unreparable. I would imagine the crew effect of HVHE also being deadly/injuring humans. [ September 30, 2003, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

I thought those were 'kill rings' like they put on gun barrels.

http://www.battlefield.ru/guns/defin_2.html this shows a nice animation and some math also. I dont agree with the animation exactly. I would claim that the change of direction happens AFTER the AP penetrator is inside the sloped armor. I have seen photos that actually show this on a sloped piece of test armor. [ September 24, 2003, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

I have seen quick action photos that demonstrate this. Thye may be somewhere on the Panzer Elite website. Reports I have read state that T34s were hard to 'burn' from shooting at them from the front. This supports the 'ricochet' down effect. I have also read reports of shermans getting holed from the front and the entering shell scooting down and sticking somewhere under the floor boards. I would imagine the following might be true: a AP gun firing at 45 degree armor and failing to penetrate would likely ricochet strait up. As the gun moves closer to the armor, the shell would gouge more armor and have a tendency to not go strait up but at a decreasing angle. At the range that the AP shot just manages penetration with remaining energy, it takes the path of least resistance and ricochets downward (maybe at 90 degrees through the plate it just came through). This is bad news for drivers/bow mgers. Good news for turret men. I wonder if lower hulls like the panther would actually ricochet the shot upward? This would make a bad situation worse since that armor was thin. I wonder what effect, if any, the rotation energy of these AP rounds have on penetration/ricocheting. They actually spin quite fast. A simple physics fact is that a rotating body does not like a change of direction (gyro).

Did he register the neo-SS-dolly? That thing still brings me nightmares...

Peng, Peng the musical fruit The more you read it The more its moot The more its moot The more its shmooks Peng, Peng the.. (intermission..not a Combat Intermission..just an intermission). It has come to my attention that Andreas, the beer swilling sausage chomping germanite, walks long distances to work in humid English climates. This, if I am not mistaken, leads to very powerful uber-odors of Arian proportians. Andreas, you stink. Nuff said. (intermission concluded) The more you puke The less you shmook Peng, Peng , the Arian fruit

Allies: best tank buster would be lack of German spares/recovery vehicles. Axis: something coming out of a 75mm tube of some length or another.

I wonder if its the fact that the first plate is essentially knocking off the cap and/or reducing the point of the AP shell. I always wondered if having an intial sloped plate would help/hurt the situation. My thinking is that shells that penetrate sloped armor take the path of least resistance. A AP shell that goes through the front of a T34 hull would basically be heading towards the floor if it did not get through the plate with adaquate velocity. It 'ricochets' downward.

I try to set covered arcs and the 88s still open up at targets outside the CA even if hiding. Anyone seen this? [ August 21, 2003, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

How about 'Shoot'n'hide'? This would be useful for ATGs and light armor SP so that they would just take a shot, preferably at a lone unsuspeting target, and then just hide after. Might also be good for snipers, mortors (ultimate ammo saver). I would like to see this be used with a covered arc command also. So a covered arc is designated for the hiding ATG/SP/whatever. If a suitable target walks into the CA, then a shot is made and the unit goes back to hiding (covered arc is cancelled also). I think the covered arc should be expanded to having an 'Ambush-ARC'. This is a CA that works the same as now, but disappears once an enemy unit is fired upon. I find the present covered arc to be a real pain because of its robotic nature.

Those boat pictures remind me of Cap'tin Stabbin porno.

what would happen if a abrams tank fired a DU round up into a cave opening in one of those afganhi caves? would the round penetrate deeply into solid rock and then just flash over into flaming radioactive heavy metal particles?... what about shooting up a nuclear reactor? DU think thats wise?

What about the 75mmL/70 'Panther' gun? It was used with a brake (in the tank) and without the brake in the Jgpnz IV L70. Was it used in the TD without a brake because it was low to the ground? Kicking up too much dust? Not needed because the interior had sufficient recoil room? Most modern tanks do not sport these. They do have bore evacuators. The main purpose of them is to collect and discharge particulate from the propellent. But could they also have some sort of brake effect?

Perhaps the game should have had the area fire command be active for less than the full minute turn. The player could then designate, lets say, 10 second area fire commands. Perhaps even at different areas. So for a MG covering an infantry rush for example, have it squirt a suspected house once or twice for 20 seconds and then return to an overwatch state. Raking a treeline could be just that, multiple designated areas along the treeline.

The americans developed the POZIT proximity fuze with the use of an HE payload? Why not the grape shot-like Shrapneler? It could blow the load and the electronics into a human's body well. It tittlates me so to think of these things! It would be a good enough disaster to have a white phosh type shelly that would sploog after a POZIT initiation and hose nasty hynies from above. It would just gush the flaming chemical spray down into the defenders holes. I like that. [ June 09, 2003, 02:55 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ] [ June 07, 2003, 02:57 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]