Mr. Tittles

The Soviet now has the headaches. His HMG is jammed and smoke is blocking it and the ATG anyway. He has not seen an enemy vehicle but there are plenty of sound contacts. The enmy is advancing up the road but slowly. They have superior firepower than his paltry squads. The reserve platoon has just fired a flare as they are advancing to the designated positions to stop any German breakthrough. The promised recon platoon has arrived! They and the reserve platoon are bunched up together near the map edge. Niether has a radio and they have poor LOS to the Bn HQ. The recon platoon had orders to make contact with the farm area forces and running into the reserve platoon has satisfied that. They are in Defend SOP now. The Soviet commander has no way to get these units to respond to his commands (he could 'order' them {through a runner} but the delay would be too long for this short scenario..normally it would be about 5-6 turns but artillery is starting to drop and that makes a runner quite a wildcard). He must go over there and personally take charge and get them all to come back to the farm. The Flag, which he had always seen as a small flag, has suddenly changed to a large flag. He must hold the flag at all costs. It is vital for the forces that will be breaking through. He will be shot if higher HQ finds out he committed his reserve so hastily. [ October 31, 2004, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

Dynamic Flag Unfolds! A Flag in the center of the farm, which the Soviet has seen all the time, is now visable to the German player. The German player now realizes that events are changing. The German hold on the town is crumbling and his troops will never make it there. Even if he gets troops off the board, he will lose. He must alter his plan immediately. Unfortunately, the dynamic flag popped at the end of his turn. He can, under optional Dynamic Flag rules, reactivate his own platoon and reissue orders. He reactivates his own platoon and drops his platoon menu. His menu has the option, 'attach unit'. He selects this and chooses one of the StuGs (the one that was firing smoke) to be an element of his 'platoon'. He has commandeered him. He then drops the platoon menu again and selects 'Change waypoints'. He cancels the initial waypoints and plots a new one around the right hand side of the map. He plans to out flank this farm and attack it on two sides. He leaves SOP as contact and then sends both the mortar HT, his own HT and the newly aquired Stug around the right hand side. even with his command rating, this gets a substantial delay but not more than a minute. The arty should be dropping by then. He must get the PG platoons on board with the change in events next turn and he might have to take over a platoon over there also. The game turn length indicator has a question mark next to the 10 turn length. This may mean he has more time...the fortunes of war are fickle. [ October 31, 2004, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

The next turn continues to give the German headaches. The two StuG hunt forward but keep halting and firing at lone riflemen. The StuG platoon is activated and the Hunt commands cancelled and move commands issued instead that will get them to good firing positions. The Soviet HMG hammers away and finally enough smoke stops his LOS to most units. The German advancing platoon (A platoon) comes under LMG and rifle fire from another position. Only one squad makes it without pinning. The stricken platoons HQ (B platoon, the one that broke initially) is coming around and the Defend platoon (C platoon)takes all enemy firers under suppression. The Bn HQ is activated first and a 1 minute delay is still on the incoming artillery rounds. The mortar HT is moved forward so that it can fire HE now that its out of smoke. The stricken platoon (B platoon) has rallied and the HQ activated. Its platoon menu drops down and a SOP of attack is given. The platoon goes into Defend instead and there will be a 1 turn delay before Attack! takes effect. If the platoon HQ had a better rating, it may have taken effect immediately. In any case, those squads that can see enemy units are given target commands. The other platoon in Defend (C platoon) is SOP changed to Attack! and it takes place immediately. This is because it is being led by the company HQ and has a radio and has a LOS to the Bn HQ. Its units are given advance orders mostly. The forward most platoon (A platoon) is put in Defend mode (have to wait for arty before this plan goes anywhere). This takes place immediately because it has LOS to company HQ, Bn HQ and a radio). Its units target those enemy it can see, and those that are already sneaking to better positions do so. The A platoon HQ again gets an advance 'bonus' in its own menu and this helps him get to a better firing position. Next turn should get him close enough to the isolated mechanics so that he may get them into the game (they are all Hiding, under a defend SOP and not drawing attention to themselves). [ October 31, 2004, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

The soviet player sees the sound contacts for the AFV and decides that he will let them get close. They must want to get his Maxim but in doing so, they will face the 45mm ATG. He decides to continue firing at the German infantry with the HMG. He activates the dug in platoon on his right and they are given covered arc orders so that they open up on the Germans before they get to the next patch of woods along the road. He activates the reserve platoon and sends them forward towards the map edge (where the Germans are intent on leaving) by issuing a Movement SOP and selecting the waypoint that was preplanned. The reserve platoon had two waypoints preplanned, one towards the map edge and one towards the farm. [ October 31, 2004, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

The German first turn goes off badly. The smoke is not quick enough and one of the PG platoons (B platoon, the one that is using running orders) gets zapped. A water cooled HMG inflicts casualties on most of this platoon and the B platoon HQ breaks. The StuGs can not see the HMG and fire at a lone riflemen who also opens up. The other PG platoons take minor casualties and return fire. Only one platoon makes its first waypoint (A platoon). The German commander starts his turn by assessing the damage. The broken B platoon HQ is selected and no menu opens up. This broken HQ has cancelled all waypoints automatically and given the B platoon a withdrawl SOP. All waypoints are gone and he has given a waypoint back to the starting jump off point! He is broken and sneaking backwards himself. One of his squads is also broken and doing likewise. Another is pinned but withdrawing. Clicking on this squad does nothing. The other squad is in good order but hiding. He has a remaining order of a move command (from the previous turn) and the German player can edit this remnant (The Hide is cancelled first). He stretches it up the road, but since numbnuts has set the waypoint in the opposite direction, there is a medium delay. No further orders can be given to this platoons elements. The fact that one squad was in good order and its Hide cancelled and move stretched was due to a LOS to the company HQ. The broken platoon HQ has to rally first or the company or Bn HQs must take over physically before this platoon gets back in the war. The broken HQ and squad are attempting to get behind smoke so this must be kept up. The next German platoon (C platoon led by company HQ) is activated and it has a pinned HQ unit. The platoons SOP was auto changed to Defend. Most of the units squads therefore 'halted' and the existing movement orders were put on hold by a substantial delay. Its waypoints are still intact. They returned fire while halted and they actually have a good LOS to the HMG. They will then be a base of fire to suppress the HMG. All is not lost. The remaining platoon (A platoon) was the lucky one with the extra advance command bonus last time. Its HQ is in good order and still on the game plan. He reached his first waypoint and his SOP is now Attack! as per plan. This lets him plot moves that will reach fairly good cover while the other platoons cover them. Unfortunately, they will be moving at a right angle to the HMG and can not use assault fire to its best effect. The HQ then issues advance commands to the platoon members. The StuG platoon continues to move towards the HMG threat with two StuGs and will be able to Hunt into LOS sometime within the next turn. The other StuG is given a smoke command again and three pauses (its smoke ammo will run out soon). It will then hunt forward along the road. There si a slight delay on top of the pauses because the movement, while parallel to the StuG platoon waypoint, is offset 100m away. The FO has reached a position where he can see the farm and is getting the arty on the way. The mortar HT continues its smoke mission and the Bn HQ gets his HT over to the stricken platoon to kick some Lt ass. [ October 31, 2004, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

The Soviet player has only 3 platoon(-) elements and 2 are under defend (defend is a subset of other SOPs but adds somewhat to the morale of the units that are under it). He has one platoon in reserve but its poorly trained and can only accept defend and movement as SOPs (Soviet movement SOP includes Human Wave though). The rest of his units are scattered and not 'platooned' and not really under C&C. The ATG and HMG are next to him and under his 'platoon'. Other units, like the scattered riflemen, are not even known to him where they are. The soviet player is to hold the farm and stop all units from trying to get up the road. A runner has come from the town and the Soviet forces are grinding down the defenders. Tonight a fresh battalion will be available to destroy the Germans and relieve the farm position. The farm must be held and the town isolated from German reinforcements. A light recon platoon will be dispatched through the woods to reinforce the farm but it is not known when. The Soviet therefore gives his units all covered arc commands and waits the Germans. [ October 30, 2004, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

The StuG platoon is activated and again just skips the platoon menu options and goes to issuing orders. His menu is Contact SOP driven but the commands are for vehicle units. He elects to fire smoke between the farm and the road that the platoons will be moving up according to plan. Since he is parralel to the road, longs and shorts will generate useful smoke. The other two Stugs are given Hunt commands so that they can bring the farm into LOS. The hunt orders are exactlty along the waypoint path and generate no delays. The Bn HQ 'platoon' is selected and the FO is given a Move to Contact order so that he can see the farm and call arty down. The mortar HT also fires smoke as the StuG is ordered to do. This should give some cover to the troops. The Bn HQ does nothing and this further reduces any delays as he acts as a command center.

Example of Play The German player activates the first PG platoon by selecting the HQ (platoon A). The platoon is under SOP contact at the moment. The platoon level menu pops up and reads: 1. Issue orders 2. Change waypoint 3. Change SOP He chooses 1. and starts to give his platoons units orders in the same manner as CM does now. The only real difference is that the menus are a reflection of the present SOP the platoon is under. Since they are under Contact SOP Contact a. Move to Contact b. Sneak c. Target d. Rotate e. Covered arc f. Split squad g. Hide He gives most squads Move to Contact orders that are within the general direction of the waypoint up the road. He splits one squad, gives the 2xLMG portion of that squad a Target (unlike the StuGs, he can see part of the farm) for Area fire. Since his commands are all within the waypoint criteria and not excessively complicated or numerous or into regions out oh his LOS, they have minimal to no delays. On the order of seconds at most. When the platoon HQ selects himself for orders, he sees that there is an ADVANCE order present in the menu. This is randomly generated to reflect the initiative and experience that certain units have. Sometimes orders can also be absent. He decides that he needs to use this order and commands himself down the road with a Move to Contact followed by an Advance order . [ October 31, 2004, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

For the example, the following SOPs are available 1. Attack! 2. Movement 3. Contact 4. Defend 5. Withdrawl There could be others but these will be used for demonstartive purposes. Attack! has the following effects on order menus. The available orders are a. Target b. Assault c. Advance d. Rotate e. Sneak f. Split Squad ..and movement.. Movement a. Run b. Move c. Target d. Rotate ...and contact.. Contact a. Move to Contact b. Sneak c. Target d. Rotate e. Covered arc f. Split squad g. Hide ...Defend.. Defend a. Target b. Sneak c. Covered arc d. Hide ..Withdrawl a. Withdraw b. Hide c. Sneak The scenario is a hasty attack. Background: You are a German commander that is modeled as a Bn commander of a Panzergrenadier unit. This morning, a PG company in 251/1 and a StuG company (-) advanced past a farm area to attack a small town that sat along a river. They have been involved in hard combat all day and need to be relieved. You have sent a relief company of PG in trucks along with mechanics and supplies to take over the defense of the town. Unfortunately, the truck borne unit was ambushed at the farm area on its way to the town. Either the defenders there have infilitrated or decided to let the first unit through and attack the second. In any case.. Combat Mission: Reorg the ambushed elements. Most of the truck mounted units survived but one of its platoons was hit bad. The mechanics are isolated ahead and holding out the best they can (they are modeled by tired LMG units and a section HQ). Neutralize the farm position, keep your losses low, and relieve the forces up ahead by advancing units off the opposite edge of the map. Forces: Depleted PG company Bn HQ w/251/1 StuG platoon FO 105mm 251 w/81mm Enemy Forces: Some HMG Light infantry forces scattered ATG or Infantry guns Scattered riflemen light mortar Believed to be remnents of a Regt that was destroyed earlier. Determined resistance but little initiative seen in trying to follow up the ambush. Plan The forces under your command are 6 'platoon' elements. Two PG platoons proper (A and B platoons) and another PG 'platoon' under the company HQ (C platoon, he is commanding remains of one platoon that was hit in ambush). The mechanics 'platoon' are up ahead and out of C&C and therefore have a DEFEND SOP automatically. They are 3 Lmgs with low ammo, tired and there is a section HQ in charge. The Stug unit with 3 vehicles is another platoon and the Bn HQ with his haltrack and the mortar halftrack and FO form the remaining 'platoon'. The map is very flat with the road running up the center. The farm is to the right and is out of LOS due to a small rise between your units and the enemy units. The road has scattered trees along its length with small patches of brush and wood every 50-75m or so. The cutoff mechanics are in one of these patches of woods down the road. The pre-planning starts with giving each of the infantry PG platoons (A B and C) severel SOP and waypoints. The platoon is selected by double-right clicking the platoon HQ. A SOP menu pops up. The first SOP selected is Contact and a waypoint is then generated from the HQ unit (like the way a LOS string works). The Waypoint string is stretched along the road to the first patch of woods. The SOP is then switched to Attack!. The next waypoint string is shorter (the unit will basically be under Attack! a short distance) and stretches to the patch of brush. The other platoons are then given similar waypoints along the same road, but with alternating SOPs. The effect is that they will be able to push up the road and cover each other. The scenario is only 10 turns and the units must use some run and move commands if they are to get down the road and exit the map. Therefore one platoon will always be running so as to leapfrog the others (as they assault or fire or move slowly). The Stug unit is then selected and given a SOP of Contact and the waypoints are layed out so that they round the slight rise and the farm will come into view. The waypoints then lead to the road so that the StuG unit can also exit the board if they can. Finally the Bn HQ unit is selected and the SOP is also contact. The mission of the mortar HT is to bring smoke along the road between the moving platoons and the farm. The FO will pick this up when he gets the farm under HE and then switches to smoke. The StuG platoon will also deliver smoke but has the primary mission of attacking any heavy weapons that slow the advance. [ October 31, 2004, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

HESH works by having the explosive in contact with the armor. The shell of the HESH is acting as a damping container. A mortar shell is a very poor HESH shell in that the HE is separated from the armor by the nose (which acts as a standoff and 'adds' to the armor). Ive read of quite a few tanks being hit by mortars. Carrius describes two Tigers being damaged by mortar fire (fragments getting into the radiators). This is the more likely effect of mortar fire. Light damage to the fans, radiators, fuel system, vision blocks, exhaust fans (a critical item to remove gases from fighting compartment).

When I have finished the C&C example, I will do a big cut and paste rather than dropping it in here piecemeal.

If a Bn HQ is KOd, then the plan may go forward if its at a jump off point. It would not be very flexible and very hard to change at all once contacts were made. In that thread where this BTS response comes from, its NOT suggested that units see less (they spot the same), but rather they ID less (pass on specifics that they themselves may not even really know). So its hard to think that this person read that whole other thread. [ October 29, 2004, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

They used chemical weapons? If that was the c ase, clearing caves and bunkers and whole (not hole) islands may have been easier for the US.

Ive given it some thought and the different SOPs and the effect on menus needs to be worked out first. I am only doing a Waypoint-SOP-Menu-limitation (at the squad level). That is, I am not going into the platoon level SOP options in this example. The basic play will be: 1 Activate Platoon. Simple Menu pops up at platoon HQ... a. Change SOP b. Change Waypoint c. Issue orders to squads [ October 28, 2004, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

Call me crazy, but I don't think many people would go for that. Not being able to go back and change a units orders after possible rethinking later in the order phase seems a little extream to me, and by no means would prevent gamey orders. </font>

Pre-Scenario Planning: Overall Plan is to use firepower/smoke to neutralize the enemy positions and allow the forces to advance up the tree lined road with minimal casualties. Artillery will put HE on the farm and then switch to smoke. 81mm will put smoke out as well as StuG. The 81mm and StuG will then advance forward and place direct fire on all targets that prevent the advance. The infantry is organized in three manuver elements. Two platoons and one 'platoon' led by the company HQ. They will use bounds where each platoon will advance while the other two provide cover. HMG and enemy guns are primary targets. The Bn HQ will act as a reserve and stay with the StuGs and haltracks. If there is a command emergency where the junior HQs are destroyed, he can move forward.

I would like to preface the example with first saying that the only changes will be the use of waypoints, SOPs and menu limitations. All other aspects of the game will remain the same. The scenario is a hasty attack. Background: You are a German commander that is modeled as a Bn commander of a Panzergrenadier unit. This morning, a PG company in 251/1 and a StuG company (-) advanced past a farm area to attack a small town that sat along a river. They have been involved in hard combat all day and need to be relieved. You have sent a relief company of PG in trucks along with mechanics and supplies to take over the defense of the town. Unfortunately, the truck borne unit was ambushed at the farm area on its way to the town. Either the defenders there have infilitrated or decided to let the first unit through and attack the second. In any case.. Combat Mission: Reorg the ambushed elements. Most of the truck mounted units survived but one of its platoons was hit bad. The mechanics are isolated ahead and holding out the best they can (they are modeled by tired LMG units). Neutralize the farm position, keep your losses low, and relieve the forces up ahead by advancing units off the opposite edge of the map. Forces: Depleted PG company Bn HQ w/251/1 StuG platoon FO 105mm 251 w/81mm Eneemy Forces: Some HMG Light infantry forces scattered ATG or Infantry guns Scattered riflemen light mortar Believed to be remnents of a Regt that was destroyed earlier. Determined resistance but little initiative seen in trying to follow up the ambush.

I will do that and show how my concept does allow what you seem to be struggling with. It will take a few hours contemplation. I would also like to point out that you could reread soem of my past posts in this thread and see that I ahve addressed soem areas. But a multiturn description of play may be useful. I specifically want to point out that many units in teh game, bazooka/LMG/crews, may not be led by an NCO but perhaps is a grouping of PFC/privates. [ October 28, 2004, 07:57 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

I think your wrong. A borg-like swarm would need waypoints to get anywhere quick. If there was no waypoints, then substantial delays would be suffered.

I see the SOP/Waypoint idea as the effect of a company/battalion level of command abstraction. The ability to edit/modify SOP/Waypoint models Company/Platoon HQ battle command abstraction. The effect SOP has on individual order recieving units in the form of order menu limitations shows experience, drills, training, response to enemy firepower, etc. These three things would go a long way towards making the game much more realistic and challenging (and maybe fun).

My system deals with limiting the orders you COULD give depending on SOP (that is menu limitations). If they were following a waypoint, they also do not have delays (or small ones depending). But not all SOPs allow all orders. Think about it. So you still can be responsive (as long as the orders are in the menu and you are following a waypoint, in C&C, etc) and the game is limiting you from gamey overcontrolled behaviour. [ October 27, 2004, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

But orders can be given beyond the 60 secs. Just keep adding orders and the amount of time to complete them will extend the action beyond one minute. Even without delay. I always thought this 'order-loading' should have some penalty BEYOND the delay. Something like having to cancel the whole thing if it needed canceling.

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=024461;p=1 This thread is worth reading through. I like some of the ideas in it. It is actually pre-CMBB? Some of the ideas seem advanced. I don't buy that CM cant be a quasi-command/small-scale tactical fun game. Unfortunately, the player has been bred into the menu at the squad scale mentality and seeing all and all the other foibles.

aka_t_w Is that a bunch of cut n paste from many different people? Its somewhat hard to follow as it seems out of context.

I would like to see more control, not less, within the 60 sec turn for squads, because most of the short dashes into cover, or from one house to the next, haven't been ordered by battalion HQ, or even the platoon HQ, but decided by the NCO right there on the ground. The only problem with having no control over a unit out of c&c is that they might be stuck sitting in a field waiting for orders from an officer, thus producing unrealistic behaviour. Then you get to the argument that most of the time you will not be playing the game, but only watching the AI play it for you. You dont want more control then, you want better TACAI taking over and making the units decide realistically what they will do. The game already does this somewhat but not very well. And having a unit out of C&C not do anything or doing something you dont want is realistic.