Liam

You're working up an impressive record, any of this PBEM? So far did we stretched in '44? Any other players play this long. Also our current game could be a long one again... I've got an unfinished game vs Condor, my first, I did dreadful. He hasn't bothered to continue. One against RRWeeks, he is feeling the wraith of the Axis SuperPower. Waiting to see if his Reds can stop me. My 3rd game against you.

Kick ass Mobile Artillery Unit...Hell, Katusha Rocket Kickass SOBs

Carriers in the North Atlantic carried not many attack planes that could kill of 1/3rd or 1/4th of a land unit. They were specialized, on English Carriers they were friggin' biplanes for christ sakes... whilst in SC1 they were F-15 Strike Eagles with Radar guided Smart bombs. What is done is done, effective against naval targets... Give UK bombers, not unrealistic SuperCarriers from the 1980s The most advanced Carriers of WW2 were in the Pacific and how effective were they really against ground Armies? How many times did they destroy a Ground Division Alone(hell, I'll bet an aircraft carrier strike never even killed a single platoon singlehandedly from WW2, bahhumbug) let alone Corps, Army, airfleet? Only usually naval targets from what I've known and studied.

Defense is definitely not viable in SC2 because the attack values and unit values raise BUT MY FRIENDS, this is WORLD WAR I is it? The best I think that the game should offer for defenders, nations like Germany, USSR and England built extensive Fortifications. The USSR less so due to the fact they had wonderful terrain for defense and that does help half values, rivers/swamps/marshes and Mountains kill the Gerry Offensive, just not so early as if perhaps the map stretched.. Another Line of Cities to the Capitol? Perhaps even two lines of cities, and do away with a few in the rear? Then again when is USSR beat? Perhaps entrenchment should allowed to be increased beyond 2 in open territory.. Perhaps Entrenchment Defense Tech would be nice. Units in cities have a MUCH better anti-tank value, not just a fair one. Mountains are impossible to attack into at all. Unbreakable in real life almost. Like the Maginot IF THE PROPER UNITS are in the mountains to defend. So what do we do? It's difficult to weigh it. Look at the West, all open terrain, NorthWest Europe the German Plain is a easy territory to rape with Mobility and Tanks if you know how. So why give the USSR better, when about 10 mobile units could sweep into Berlin undefended in 5-6 turns even with stiff resistance, so long as they have the air along the way and the AW, and Heavy Tank to do the job. So STOP investing in Production and Industry and invest Heavy Tank, IW and Mobile units. This is a game of mobility afterall, only toward the end did it become stalemate when more units were introduced, reserves were mobilized, Germany went on full War Economy and the Fronts CLOSED... but there is difficulty closing the fronts here making it a stalemate, with a wise tactical move decided the game... I found against Rambo he had about 50-60 Red units I had 20-30 German. I stemmed the tide with 4 Air and hit withdrawl, highly mobile. Try Mobility once before you judge defense. Hit and Run is the strongest Tactic of All, and slip in, cut off.. Which is hard on the Eastern Front, Personally I think the USSR gets much too much corps my tastes. They were more of a Heavy Tank Nation. However their Manpower Pool was vast, Rambo placed out about 25 Corps at IW 3 and AntiTank 2, that about ended the Eastern Front for me...otherwise Panzers with supply, which was the trickiest part would hit the Urals in 1942 or at least Cut off the Caucasus P.S. to solve our problems, how about fortification tech. 2 or 3 Engineers are built at a GREAT reduction in price, and they work MUCH faster... Reds could build forts, makeshift ones in a matter of weeks.. That isn't possible now. Plus upping the value of their defense... 1 or 2 turn Level defenses, increased each turn in value of defense.. Perhaps 4 turn max... at highest Defense level, giving France-UK-Russia the strongest Start in that tech and Germany second to them but no Engineers for UK or France only Russia after Barby 2-3 free, who builds forts anyways? And cities should be able to be bolstered directly from both air, ground and naval? Not sure if that's implemented thought you lost the city if you tried that. I haven't seen the cost effectiveness in it so far. So who has built a fort really?

Artillery was Mobile, the time represented in SC2 is how many days per turn? Look how far mobile infantry or tanks move in just 1 movement, 200-400 miles in some cases it appears... That would be impossible in one go. Mobile Artillery, WW1 had more stationery Artillery. A Germany 88 could be setup in moments part of Blitzkrieg.. a Halftrack can town an 88 at 25-35 MPH on a Road, 15-20 off road, even over mountains and through Marshes and the gune can be deployed and fired on a target likely further away than Infantry could target and likely as quickly as a Tank could get there if you're counting on Heavy Tanks like a Tiger that likely couldn't even navigate much through a marsh or rough terrain...weighing much more than Artillery It would be unreasonable to have arty with a range > 1 hex on the scale of the main campaign. In practice, the vast majority of arty in ww2 was used at ranges < 20 miles which I believe is less than 1 hex. Even the massive guns of the USS Iowa only had a range of about 26 miles and I'm guessing the effective range was far lower. So in the large campaign, it really only makes sense to incorporate it in armies and corps. OTOH, Rockets, at least the German V2's had a much longer range at the end of the war. </font>

Very good idea, Artillery is very kewl. You'd have to have it able to level an entire 5 strength points for it to be effective against an enemy. That or make it affordable with some mobility. The Germans started '40 with good mobile Artillery, both on Tank Chasses(sp? and special designed trucks

John: I was just at the coffee shop overviewing some books on WW2, Everything from Patton vs Rommel, To the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, Kursk, etc... Sure the library is even better stocked in WW2 history. They had Guderians Book there, opened up just a few pages of Kursk, explained that Guderian was supposedly instrumental in the organization of Germany's Panzers in the 30s? Oddly, right beneath and I've heard this mentioned many times, before Kursk, really Germany was fully mobilized. They got up around 9 plus million at that point. Seems Manpower was a big problem with Germany. The Lines at Stalingrad being covered by Minor Armies that as you say and as even the German's had regarded them as being Poor Quality. Romanians use to fighting Balkan Wars...I can envision the many blunders the Germans made just in a few moments of glancing over old books and new ones alike. In history I know that the Germans split in two after Stalingrad and Caucasus Oil, that was a blunder, the second Group would've been perfect to cover lines and it's armor to take Stalingrad sooner. Though I Hardly see that as being a collapse of the Front for the Russians. As in SC as in history, it is wise to target the Axis Minors to break through, gain experience, wreak havoc. Also in SC, the Mountains and rugged terrain and crappy supply in the Caucasus make it very difficult for it to be a viable strategy. VS Brother Rambo that was my attempt in our game, I got close but just as the Germans had I collapsed on my way into the Caucasus, Siberians went straight for that Spearhead, cut it off and killed the trapped troops. I lost an Army, and never recovered. To summize off topic a little, this game has good Strategic Historical potential. The Battle of Britian is shortchanged, your concepts were good. I do know that many believe that air supremacy over the Channel was impossible, well maybe not impossible but the cost not worth the gain. Even Goering saw this.. The Germans were not equipped with as you say enough Aircraft, the right aircraft, more pilots, more training, the right tactics....they didn't have the right type of Bombers nor the time to really outperform the Brits. They had to think of other fronts, that or at least Hitler had his eyes set on Russia, perhaps Hitler was a Landluber that's the idea I always get....afraid of sea. To sum it up though, your ideas are tactical, I put out real strategic ideas to cover that Portion of the War, which many say was a GameMaker or GameBreaker for 1940... And it's true, no England meant no USA any time soon. I think a battle for the skies was important, It meant control of the sealanes, control of the ports, control of getting Germans over on gliders. Once they arrived what could they have done? They would've wreaked havoc......It may have not be possible in 1940, but in Spring or early Summer of '41, very possible. Did the GHC think that far? Beats me... Best Ideas to simplify the battle of Britian to represent the poor German Command Tactics: cut their abilities with their HQ. Enhance the British as I said with temporary reinforcements. Plus limit Amphibious operations with Control of the Air. I don't see Naval Power as being Supreme, without more Cruisers. England has to defend Egypt and other arenas, like the Atlantic. That is almost impossible and keep England safe. I don't think the British would've fought on in Egypt, maybe Canada. Though They would've fought on forever.. It was likely the biggest battle of the War, because it meant the end of everything. The Entire MiddleEast, India, Major Portions of Africa, Suez, everything the Japanese could then theft. England out is a GameKiller. Not represented in SC terms. USSR can kill Germany historically but not in SC2 as well. USSR will need luck, and lots of money. With the Diplomatic and Expanionist power of Germany if she captures Egypt.. The Russians don't startoff Strong enough to destroy Germany...... On Italians: I feel bad for them. Everything you write upon them sounds bad. I hear the best about the Italian Navy and Airforce... And well, as you mentioned those Troops under German Command. You have to feel pity for them. French had it tough but the Italians almost should be under the classification of a Minor as far as Upgrades are concerned, to be historical. Extreme but Real

I say this is the incentive, Partisans do not appear and Scorthed Earth do not appear in cities that do not have defenders? Accurate Also Russians get a reduced price of replacing those initial frontline units...The Reds would then do it just to cost the Germans slow them. Also the Ukraine and Baltic Region is Liberated instead of Scorched, the Russians do not care much about their comrades, not enough to even devote 1 corps

John: I just thought it shared realism. The game wishes to follow a historical viewpoint: Imagine this, Battle of Britian now is a flop. There is not real qualities to it as would historically make it feel like the battle of Britian. The best you can do is operate the Egyptian AF to England and purchase Monty early, setting you back in tech. You still will likely not successfully defend the UK without giving up Egypt. Rarely can one afford Technology, HQs and Units vital. So I look at it this way Hugh Dowding was in Control on one Side and on the other Herman Goering. One was a competent defender and likely the savour of the English Isles, the other a blundering arrogant pig who likely aided to the loss of the war. Noone would disagree with this viewpoint as History is over.. Goering failed to kill the BEF, failed to defeat the RAF, failed to supply the 6th army. Dowding was superb, defended the Isles against overwhelming Numbers. Neither Commander can represented in the field, all that you get in SC2 is Army HQs, not actually Airforce HQs which would be distinctly different. Though at the very least England should be supplied Montgomery to represent their fine RAF Leadership with a 2nd Fighter then these two units disband officially at the end of the Battle, which you could say is toward the First Frost of '40-'41...Amphibious Transports should suffer this penatly if approaching the Isles, that if Air Supremacy is not obtained, there is a 50% chance they will not unload their troops. Air supremacy is fighters reduced Strength 4 Defending and attacking strength 6. Not allowing the freeflow of transports via their Escort Range. That would really give a real feel and be historical. Hurricanes and Spitfires would've pounced transports around the clock sorties... Likewise English should suffer the same losses when attempting anything against the Germans, which is to give the role Fighters something substantial. Germany would do nicely with a Light bomber squadron to start the war with the HE-111 was real and advanced for it's day. It did reign terror upon London... By the way: What you spoke of in Churchill you have admit something the man did save the Isles as well as making errors. He was aware of Germany's buildup early, brought it up Parliment, none listened. He was wise in Bombing Berlin, making it a personal issue with Hitler, causing Hitler's blunder and informing Goering to Bomb English Cities. Etc.. He was a much more accomplished a Field Commander than Stalin or Hitler just not meant to be in charge of the Armed Forces on a tactical level. P.S. Romanians and Italians on the Eastern Front, it seems all that I ever hear is that they were pretty much smooshed like bugs. I have to assume they had no equipment and no formal training to fight a Power like Russia. They had very little incentive either. Especially Italians how many miles from home? Germans were likely righteous to regard them as incompetent, and they should of been on Partisan duty alone not on the frontlines of a Major Front War. Regardless, Italians in SC are capable with technology upgrades. [ April 24, 2006, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: Liam ]

probably 2 more subs and minus 2 or 3 cruisers by late 40 yes

As far as I'm concerned, Italy, Germany and USSR all had Leaders that tampered with their Field Commanders Operations. Brits and Americans seem to have left that more to the proffessionals. Perhaps a Percentage factor and not a name that any General in the HQ factor can turn to 3 rating or in Italy's case, 1... randomely after say 1941 for Germany, the whole war for USSR and Italy... Also perhaps the constant sacking of HQs and having them put back in the Production for 3 months if they should lose under such dreadful Regimes. Not lacking any history Naturally these figures can go back up and you can replace those HQs, but the disorganized minds of Fanatical Leaders who tampered in their Frontlines.. You're supposed to be the Chief and Commander in SC but we all know the truth you are a hand puppet moving the strings along of a greater war.. Those men are X factors in your decisionmaking as you're greater than they are in a sense you're God of a simulated War. SO such an event gives you the fustrastion and real feel of the ETO

John: You are always a good educator to me, lots of good knowledge of WW2. I love the lessons as I learn along with applying them to SC2. Alone I usually wouldn't memorize a few the items listed but you usually add to that with historical comment, debate along with the Game involved. Makes for double additive I think that French and Italians start off with poor leadership understandable..maybe by the liberation, they should recieve DeGaulle Option for their own damned pride at about 7 or 8... and Americans/British are shortchanged. Russian and Germany land leadership is the King of SC2 but what it misses is a lot of the Admirals, Air Commanders on all sides, as the Japanese had one of those. Some of the best weren't even Army Officers 1 thing missing from SC2 is the regular appearance of Adolf and Stalin like Partisans on the Eastern Front in Command of troops with a Level 3 HQ 0 Experience that way we'd add some neat realism... they should appear around the Capitols constantly, put some cement in SCers boots taking over from Manny and Zhukov up around 2 or 3 stars. Would you let an Allied breakthrough kill 'em? How about it costing the game

Good enlightenment... I was aware where most men were Manstein's concepts just got in the door for France no? The German High Commander of the Wermacht at the time was not in favor at first, of punch a hole still all of our reserves through the line then changed his mind? Not sure if History Channel or yourself described these plans, interestingly enough he was never given what the other Commanders were. You think Nazi Favoritism? You think perhaps the German Generals were to Prudent to be in Command? Seeing they were underdogs they needed Revolutionary Men like Rommel, Manstein and Guderian. As the Frenched needed men like Degaulle

An answer please? would be nice if the Allies could cancel out the diplomacy efforts of Italy and Axis together </font>

Heinz Right? Ketchup folks, he was an idea man, one of the forefathers of Blitzkrieg, he'd be more of a Staff man less of a field man. Even though I suppose Manny(was still disputed as as genius) would be too, along with Rommel(was still not a army General) in 1940. Many of these Fine Commanders shouldn't even be in the list till later P.S. where is Von Paulus? A field marshall and quite legendary one of the first of the High Command to actually say screw you Hitler by action though wouldn't have surrendered you poor boys at Stalingrad. I'd of just suicided them after what occurred after the battle. Most of the 6th Army never saw home ever again...Surrending to certian death anywhoo

Oddly enough Norway would move Finland very little seeing as Norway is a Key to England. Sweden and Denmark together along with Norway would look like Scandanavian conquest to me! Personally anyways I'd be weary as Fins I know that Fins fought hard an inflicted what hundreds of thousands of casualties? I may be off, but that is considerable, all that Wintery weather I think that Stalin would've done best to remain neutral toward Finland. The only thing to really gain there is Helsinki and the rest is worse weather than there is Russia. Which is grave attrittion. I do know that Traditionally the Reds have claims on Finnish lands going back centuries. At one time the Fins dominated down the Rivers Russia..Old disputes there folks but a little country in the middle of god knows nowhere has a greater impact than could ever be imagined? They help cut of Leningrad in WW2, very well could've spelt the end of Joe Stalin oh by the way, This Game is inaccurate, the damage from Finnish and Scandavian Winter should be triple that of Middle Russia their best Fortress Not Men or Equipment, Winter worse than the Reds

Lordy, where did the Axis get that sort of production? Did HR give away Readiness for free ?

I tried flying a Bomber, it was a waste, I use a Saitek that cost 45 bucks, not enough! That was back when 1gig of Ram could run Aircraft in WW2online, now you need like 2 gigs at least. I ran JU-Stuka runs well initially.. After a few patches I often lost control though I managed to kill a few dozen tanks with the item. Also managed to avoid crashing quite a bit. Though very little success in the Fighters I always ran amuck lag, and crappy computer. I think I could be a mediocre pilot if not. I am a successful Tanker, not the best but Axis tankers we just serve the purpose. An accomplished Sniper served two or three squads (I had monsterous long vision, Pinched more 900-1100 yard kills than most back before they nerfed our Mauser and bloody breathing, I don't breath that HARD! to top it all off how can you kill a guy when his lag makes him invisible for 5 or 10 seconds? they have issues on that network but still fun and I guess I got plenty of kills the same way... about 1:1 in tanks 1:25 infantry I really liked to spawn into hell at midnight isn't that fun? but about 1:1 in inf in equal situation ) mostly was an independant for 3 or 4 years on and off never really achieved beyond Colonel, maybe Lt. Col edging on Col b4 th patch and got to serve with a few actual Field Marshalls, I don't see how they got those sort of kills? 5000 a month that's a career for me..Too bloodthirsty [ April 21, 2006, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: Liam ]

P.S. you might ask a person on-line Some of us if you ask real nicely and reimburse us the shipping CD charges may mail out a copy if it's possible to use someone elses downloaded copy with your own Code? Hey, friends are for something!

I handled software production for a company, personally produced about 400-500 copies, until my back starting hurting. I owned about 2k worth of equipment split the proceeds with partners and did most of the hardwork.. then I found a Russian in Florida and now get 1000 at a time for about a buck something a pop. No boxes or Manuals included. I have played SC2, I tell you this, you will need DSL, or Cable to play it well. You can play 56k but it slows it down to about 10 minutes per turn when it is possible to do a 4-6 minute turn with the faster connection speed. You can always get a copy of this game. Just goto a Coffee House, or a Internet Cafe or a computer store give em 5 bucks and your CD and say Viola this is what I Want this is this address now get it for me.

Hey! Reminds me of my infamous Night: "Liam's starts his Diesel Panzer III, slides off with his Squadron of 20 Tanks, couple infantry and 1 or 2 fighter spotters(not to many to give away anything) to take the town of Mountfacoun, Panzers in the rear brought up for Supply that the Allies must assume we do not have. We know that we cannot be spotted by any Hurricanes, or Spitfires along the way or the operation will be poop. Several Allied AntiTank Guns directed South will destroy our formation, the Forest Coverage isn't enough and our Armor will not resist even 1 poor Allied Marksmen. We stop a moment rest our overheating engines then make our way in. I spot a Char1 Bis on a bridge, at the front of the spearhead, 2 Somuas moving out to cover a frontal assualt they fear no axis armor, a spy has betrayed our formation. I take position, I ice the Char by placing 50 well placed shots on his soft points.... but my radiator has had it, the Somuas pound me but a buddy slips and engages is destroyed, 5-10-12 Axis tanks are butter...but our main thrust had made their objective, a Control point is captured, I'm stalled outside a Spawn Point. I start icing Allied units, 1-2-20......infantry being splattered all over their barracks by my Duel MGs. I catch several tanks attempting escape the Fortress before they can take position kill them before their crews are in place. That is it... That is a happy average day for an Axis tank... we abandon our busted up Panzer and it's refitted with a new radiator for another duel... and it's true purpose in that game and about correct in the real world too I assume. We take the town an hour later, I'm patted on the back with actually killing a char with a poor Marksmen at his helm with lucky shots.

Yes, the Char1Bis was a Monster. Slow though... Had that been organized as an Armor fighting Unit, and put north of the maginot awaiting a pitch tank battle with Panzer IIs, those Panzer IIs would've never penetrated Char, Somua Armor. They only had 20 MM on a P2, completey ineffective vs such armor.. P2s were good anti-infantry weapons and fast...good to flank a weak armored vehicle, no good at killing other tanks... a minimum of a what 37mm? I believe in German guns... Standard on a p3 or t38 I remeber Blitzkrieg.. P2s are ubervulnerable, you can't even drive them with your hatch closed. P3s are soft armor there no german tank that stands up to an Allied one unless you're talking about a Renault or an A15. That or armored cars Best thing about a Panzer is getting there before the enemy knows you there and toasting his rearend. or his Face panel when he's taking off. The P3H was the only tank I didn't despise in early Blitzkrieg on the Axis side, and that was dwarfed in later versions

Panzer IIs were the staple during France, but Germans had plenty of T38s and P3s, both very similar and one Neville Chamberlain gave him compliments to CzeckSlovakia. The P-4s were available not fitted with a decent turret gun till later mainly a Infantry Support tank. The Panthers, Tigers, Elephant Tanks(the true behemoth mostly a sitting turret), all the other you spoke of... not in great #s true What was the power of these tanks, well..... depending on the front they served and what type of position they were assualting. I think they all required Infantry, Support Trucks, Support Tanks, etc.. or they would be toast. A few suicidal infantrymen can kill a tank pretty easily with TNT, just hide out in the woods and attach to the Tanks ass as it goes up a hill. A slower tank is far more vulnerable..But FirePower, Armor, Speed, and numbers are what mattered later. Earlier tactics... Frogs had an excellent Tank, S35 far outclassed anything the Gerries had

I finally figured that out HR, a bit late Yes, you're right, Amphibious Invasion Tech seems a must. some way to phaze the ability to being for serious Operations that cost a lot. Germany will easily take England, no stress in it at all. Even Egypt afterwards, UK should retreat to Canada with all her Asian-Indian-African forces recalled to Canada for a second go..

Well, what HR says is true, "HEY! You've got to Hide your Fleet away!" I thought I should protect the Isles, not much use since I cannot get the Americans over anytime soon, those ports really should do a bit more for the defense of a battleship, or Carrier. I tried to counter the sub threat, 3 out 4 subs that I've seen have been reduced to strength 6 by my air mainly... But I cannot finish them off. 3 or 4 hits and no damage from surface fleet... I should've preserved my cruisers somewhere but the threat of SL frightened me. The game has changed dramatically at sea, I am not much of a navyman, I'm more an airforce man. I've not lost one airfleet since I started playing SC2... but they're nolonger Uber alone