Terif

Yes, the Spain thing is not a winner. It creates a very different game. Without a Sealion - which is not possible if Allies take Spain + Portugal - it will be usually a very exciting game with fights all over the map. If the Axis player knows what he does, it is even a disadvantage for Allies if they can conquer both countries... and Rambo knows how to play Axis - especially after I did the same some hours ago, so he knew exactly what I would do and how to counter...

Spain neutral is only needed for Hungary and Romania. Bulgaria is only affected indirectly: if one of the both countries didnt join, then Bulgaria wont join too. But when Romania and Hungary have joined, Axis can attack Spain. Bulgaria will join.

You bid for playing the Axis (standard scenaria fall weiss 1939). Allies get additional mpp at the start. This is done by using the editor. There are different bidding systems: - original one: 1:1:1 i.e. bid 100 means UK, USA and Russia get 100 mpp each at the start. - 1:4 until 1:10 i.e. USA doesnt get mpp. UK receives 1 x the bid, Russia 4-10 times the bid. Standard is in the meantime the 1:8 system: e.g. bid 250means: UK 250; USA 0; Russia 250x8=2000 mpp. Bidding is done because most players think Axis has an advantage against Allies, to determine who plays which side and to even out skill differences between the players.

Zapp: I bought my first chits in LR and jets after Portugal surrendered (max 3 chits in jets). I am pretty sure Rambo had only 1-2 chits in jets during Iraq, cause he used all mpps to buy air, for battles and operating... but I think he knows detailed chit numbers, perhaps I am wrong...

If you report a loss you can write a comment about the game. But if you use a comma in your text, everything behind the comma will not appear any more in the message box (little bug). So dont use commas in the ZL report section...

BTW: to answer your questions: I took Spain in both games. In the first he sent some air to Spain (probably he read about it in Condors thread about his game against me ), but had to remove it after it was nearly killed by ground units. He also tried a Sealion, but it failed and he surrendered before Russia was in.

Yes, I was both times Allies. It was a very good game against Rambo. We battled in Spain, Iraq, Romania (conquered by Russia), Skandinavia and again for Turkey, Iraq and France. Unfortunately he got LR lv1 in turn 6 (1 chit), very bad in Spain... Then he conquered Egypt and Iraq (taken by Allies before) just in time for Barbarossa (2 turns before), same with Yugoslavia. Until Barbarossa he was always 1 tech advance ahead in LR and jets...this changed after Russia was in the war, but it was too late for Iraq. Russia conquered Romania, Finland and liberated Sweden. But Romania was lost early. I made the mistake not to reduce Oslo port, but to block it only with my units. So he was able to send reinforcements after his 7 airfleets in Denmark killed my blockade ships. One turn more and Skandinavia would have been Allied (Bergen already occupied, only Oslo was missing), after my last battleship failed to reduce the port (expected combat result 0-2, bad luck as it was only reduced by 1, so the port was still working), Allied task force in Skandinavia was lost. After this western Allies invaded France and took Brest while Russia conquered Turkey and Iraq. It was the last chance for Allies to turn the tide, but Axis had too much mpp and tech (AA Lv3!!, AT Lv2, HT Lv2, jets Lv3 vs Lv2 Allies, LR Lv1, IT Lv1...)in the meantime. Additionally Siberians didnt transfer till the end. Germany conquered Moskov and approached Sverdlovsk in the Urals, but no Siberians in sight....(Russia had too much units left in the Balkans Iraq and Turkey) Trench warfare in France, both sides with lots of air, but Germany with Lv3 vs 2 UK... At the end: - UK/USA hold western France with 2 Hq, 4 armies and several corps, but would have been killed in the next turns after UK had no mpp left to reinforce its airfleets. - Russia had Turkey, Syria and Iraq (2 cut off italian corps remaining) + landings near Tobruk. - But russian homeland was nearly lost without Siberians: Moskov, Kharkov lost, Urals next turn. Lots of german armies, tanks and airfleets (10 in total) in mother Russia - total german tech superiority in every area. Allies surrendered in June 1943: no mpp, no siberians, no tech, not enough units left = no hope to turn the tide or to reach 1947 for a draw... The game was very close, without luck for Axis in Iraq Yugoslavia or Romania or without my mistake in Norway Allies probably would have won the war. In every case this game shows: - Never do the same thing twice in a row without changing anything in the strategy or the enemy is well prepared - Spain is fun , but very risky for Allies (I lost 2 of my 4 total lost games cause I used the Spain gambit..). If Axis is prepared for Spain, Allies have a problem...long term its a disadvantage for Allies. - I like the spain gambit cause it creates a totally different and exciting game, even if I loose sometimes because of this ... We battled over the whole map forth and back, that makes really fun.

To DoW Ireland is not a must. Sometimes it can be better to leave it neutral. But attacking it in the first turn provides some advantages: - carrier/ship/AF training - Germany has to reinforce the corps until they are sure they can conquer Paris. If Ireland falls too early, UK can use all air + mpp in France and perhaps crush Germany with the additional irish mpp. - because of that: each turn the irish corps looses 2-7 strength points= 16-42 mpp (vs 10mpp income) - To conquer Ireland UK only needs 1 corps (not 2). It simply moves into the empty city after carrier/AR/ships destroyed the defender (with a bit training carriers/AF/ships do in average 2 damage). - UK gets 250-350 (average 300) mpp plunder and 16 mpp/turn from Ireland. Early mpps are much more useful than the late mpps from USA. With these mpps UK can slow down Axis or do some research. Until USA comes in it usually takes 20-30 turns, multiplied with 16 mpp/turn...not much mpps lost in total anyway. But sometimes UK needs its carriers somewhere else and cant attack Ireland, or they want to do an early invasion with USA help, then its also better to leave it neutral until USA comes in.

I am also in..

Disorder wrote at July 14 in this thread: next checkpoint is August 30. So I guess second round should be finished tomorrow.

If you want me to adjudicate your game: Send me your last two moves (if possible) + passwords to my e-mail address in the profile. Also tell me if you want me to post the adjudication here in the forum or not. If I hear nothing about this from you, I guess it is ok and I will post it here (+ send it to you via e-mail). Good luck for your games, perhaps they can be decided in the last few hours

Zapp is right: Since Hungary and Romania already joined, Bulgaria can join later. Bulgaria is independent of Spain. But if Spain joins before the two minors joined then you have a chain reaction... And as I wrote in another thread: SC first checks for the minors to join and after this for Spain. Therefore it was possible that the two minors joined in the same turn before Spain joined as well.

Curry: A broad front is an advantage for the attacker. If Russia is in the defence they need a small front. If Russia is in the offence they prefer a broad front, but in this situation they will never get Siberians anyway, since they attack .

Updated with russian strategies...(first thread)

Updated with russian strategies...(first thread)

Hi BK6583, You are right, there are not many games any more played longer than 1941/42. Often players surrender some turns after Barbarossa: either Axis are strong and break russian defence lines, or the lines hold and Axis surrender. Thats a pity, cause I find the second part of the game also very interesting and sometimes much more exciting than the first one. Especially as Axis when their offensive has been stopped and they have to switch to a defensive strategy. And often situation can change again and even in a bad situation it is possible to win . But if you dont try it you never know and many players dont have the patience to fight and try it. I can give you one example of an AAR where both sides played longer. It was my first loss, we played until May 1947 until stalemate victory for Axis and the result was open until mid 1946 : http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=002557#000000 But there are many other older AARs with a long fight. At the start most players play some games until the end... [ August 27, 2003, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Like Bill Macon already said, there exists no strategy that can be used in every situation. It depends on the overall situation and how weak/strong Axis and western Allies (UK/USA) are. But here some possible strategies as Russia (offensive strategies are especially with the mpp from a bid possible, but also after some turns if Axis are weak in Russia): - Use natural defence lines behind rivers or marshes. First defence line Riga-Minsk behind Dvina. In the south: if Axis has not much ground units, then you can try to build a line Kiev-Odessa. If they are strong then behind Dnjepr: Smolensk-Kharkov-Sevastopol. - Siberian transfer is triggered if Axis moves towards Vologda, Moskov, Voronezh, Stalingrad or Rostov. It depends on both sides strengths (if Russia has too many units, then even if Moskov is attacked, siberians dont come) and how many units move how close to one of the above mentioned cities. Moskov has the biggest range (units count for siberians within 4 hexes around it) other cities have shorter range. - you can use the siberian triggers for your advantage as Russia: When Minsk and Smolensk have fallen, you dont need to build a line between Leningrad and Moskov. Just leave it free. If Axis moves into this gap, then siberians arrive. If not, you can use your units/mpps better at another place and you have a much smaller front. - for defence lines use cheap corps. They are easy to replace. A tank can cause some damage to Axis, but is as easy destroyed as a corps, but much more expensive. Russia cant afford to loose too many mpps (or their defence lines will break soon and Axis can cut off Russian forces), Axis can. - if you have enough mpp have some Hq supported armies/tanks - some hexes behind the front - ready to kill enemy broke through units. - TAKE CARE OF YOUR HQ´S ! Dont move them to close to the front if the enemy has some airfleets ready to kill them. Dont forget Long Range developements ! Hqs support units 5 hexes away, your cities provide them with supply, so no need to move your Hqs to the front. Also dont forget to use terrain to protect your Hqs: placed in a city (forest is also better than open terrain) or best in a mountain, they are nearly indestructable. If you entrench your Hqs in the right terrain or keep them out of enemy sigthing range, you dont have a problem with airfleets killing your Hqs like some players complain. If a Hq is in a mountain or city, the enemy needs luck and up to 10 !! airfleets to be able to kill it, with bad luck even much more... So if he attacks your Hq be happy: he gets some cheap experience, but with his air he could have killed you some much more important units elsewhere... And if he really has 10+ airfleets at the east front, then stay away with your Hqs and dont forget to attack in the west, since he has no air left for defence there. If Axis can afford so much air AND enough ground units AND a defence in the west, then Allies did a lot wrong in the past and have lost . It is simply an mpp problem: if Axis buy a lot of airfleets then they have weak ground forces and ground forces are much more efficient in killing other ground units than airfleets. Usually Axis cant afford more than 7-9 airfleets in total. If they have more, than Allies should also have a lot or they did something wrong and have lost anyway, no matter if Axis buy air or other things with their mpp...(little contribution to the "too powerful" airfleet discussion ). Some offensive strategies: - first target is Finland. Either taken by an amphibious invasion or attacked from Leningrad, supported by russian air. If Germany has jet advantage, then Russia has to be fast or to destroy Helsinki port . If the port is below 5, then Axis cant send reinforcements or a Hq and Finland will fall within 2-3 turns when attacked from land. - If Russia is strong and can compete with Axis air, then Sweden is an option. - If Russia attacks Turkey, they have a connection to Africa and can conquer Iraq and Beirut. In the first wave, Istanbul should be taken, or at least some units have to land east of the city to cut off Turkey from the rest of Europe. If Axis is able to establish a land connection so that they can operate units directly to the turkish capital and Iraq, then Russia has lost the turkish war, so take care... Now a last advice: Always have a look at the overall situation. In SC there are two fronts: east (Russia) and west (UK/USA). Usually one of them is in the defence, one in the offence. The player has to recognice where he has to defend against Axis and where he can attack. Axis decide at which front they use their mpp/units, but Allies can influence this decission by their actions (especially their actions BEFORE Barbarossa) . If Axis attack strong in the east, they are weak in the west. Therefore Russia should defend and USA/UK attack and win the war. If Axis attacks England or leaves much in the west, then they are weak in the east. Therefore Russia can go in the offensive while UK/USA defend/try to keep Axis units in the west. [ August 27, 2003, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

I just tested the Portugal/Spain-France thing over a dozen times: - As long as France is alive: Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and Spain dont join under no circumstances. Yugoslavia doesnt coup (it has only a 10 % chance each turn, but even with Greece conquered =25% chance it never couped, so I am pretty sure...). - France or Spain has no effect on Finland: they will join like normal - either USA neutral when Russia is in the war, or Leningrad threatened (40%). - if Allies DoW Portugal: Spain will join Axis AFTER France surrendered with a probability of 75% checked EACH turn. Therefore it will join Axis in every case, but sometimes it needs one or two turns longer... - When Spain joined: then Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria dont join any more. But it can happen that in the same turn first one of the minors (e.g. Hungary) joins and then Spain (=the rest of the potential minors stay neutral). First the game checks for the usual minors and then for Spain to join - in one test all 3 minors joined and Yugoslavia couped in the same turn France surrendered + Spain joined the next turn. In several tests France surrendered, Romania and/or Hungary joined AND Spain joined, all three things at the end of the same turn... Wachtmeister: I think this is what happened in your test: after you conquered France, Hungary joined (can be the same turn France falls). After Hungary Spain joined. Either in the same turn or one/two turns later. [ August 27, 2003, 08:02 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Kuniworth: Ok after your last reply I think you first have to cool down a bit before we can talk again... Only one thing: I was also a bit angry now, cause in our last games you surrendered very early too and from my point of view without reason, so these games were a bit a waste of time for me... I saw your surrender to Wachtmeister and it is an official Ryder game which was initiated by yourself where you always said how important it is - and then you surrender with your situation not too bad after a few turns - I had to give a comment about the game situation, also hoping you would reconsider your surrender and continue. Sorry for that, but I had to do it today... now I go sleeping, perhaps we both calm down tomorrow.. [ August 25, 2003, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Kuniworth: I just saw your reply to Wachtmeister. Seems you meant the lost password in your first game with "cheating". OK, this leaves a bad feeling cause it is seldom to loose the own password. But you made the decission to start a new game and not to claim a win. Now you should not complain about the first game after you surrendered this new game... I still find you surrendered a bit early, but its understandable after your emotional reaction. It seems you surrendered because you were angry and not because you really had lost ...

Wachtmeister: I agree with you, this has nothing to do with cheating. Obviously Axis commander went crazy after he didnt get LC in turn 2... Kuniworth: Fight like a man and dont surrender when it gets a bit difficult and it is not so easy any more to win. If you would concentrate and fight you still would have a good chance to win - I speak from experience: I already had much worser situations at the beginning... once I took Paris with my last army (everything else except air and some corps was lost !) once it took me until March 1941 and still won the game. You have nothing important lost until now. Germany has lots of mpp to afford reinforcements. To loose 3 cities was an unnecessary mistake, but should be no problem to reconquer them. I am pretty sure Allies have lost also a lot and are now exposed to counter attacks if they are still in Germany. Axis has a huge advantage at the start if fighting at the ground. Even if you loose half of your units you should still be able to reach Paris without much problems, especially with the plunder from 3 countries now...

I totally agree with Bill Macon: A DoW at Spain without conquering creates a different game, but is a short and long term disadvantage for Allies. If they conquer it additionally, then Allies can have a slight advantage, but only if Axis can be confused by this strategy and dont know how to react properly. Otherwise it has "only" the advantage of creating a very different game (much better if you have played the "standard" game very often already). It has usually no mpp advantage, but a strategical advantage. And yes: the percentage of Spain joining Axis after an allied DoW at Portugal is 75 %. But first Axis have to conquer France, only then Spain will join (same with all other Axis minors). I am not sure if SC checks only once for the 75% or every turn - I didnt test this, cause even a one time 75% is too much risk to take. But if really someone tried it 5 times and Spain didnt join Axis, then I guess its a one time check. Other possibility: France was still alive and therefore Spain didnt join.

Hey Kuniworth, bad luck can happen in a war. No reason to condemn SC for beeing a bit realistic in this aspect and providing new situations from time to time... It is not guaranteed that you can take LC in turn 2 as Axis. Even with the best preparation it fails sometimes. No reason to give up, just a little delay for Axis. You have conquered Brussel, so they will surrender soon. Poland and Denmark as well. 3-4 turns later in Paris doesnt matter too much, but perhaps it will create a more interesting and balanced game since the bid seems not to be so high and last game was very successful for Axis. But I think you will win it in the end since you are fighting in the Ryder cup for the european cause and were superior agains Wachtmeister in the last game . Wachtmeister: If both LC corps survive, it is very likely that LC doesnt surrender in the first turn (~75%). But usually they surrender in the 2nd, even if LC doesnt loose strength. But like with every country: the less units surviving, the more likely is a surrender...

Yes, the difference is the Spain strategy creates a whole new game and players have to think about their strategy. It is not possible to use the old (in the meantime a bit boring) standard strategy when the Spain thing happens. The effect is it creates a totally different and exciting game with new front lines and possibilities. And thats the fun of SC: discovering something new and developing new tactics/strategies. And it has not the abiltiy to crush Axis or to provide a huge advantage for Allies. The game is still balanced, depending on both sides actions. Strategy and tactic become more important than in the standard game. Therefore I find it is very good it works this way and I dont want to miss this possibility. [ August 22, 2003, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Kuniworth: Dont panic . Perhaps you are stunned at the first moment if Allies do something unusual, but concentrate on how to use his actions for yourself and against the enemy. In this case a faked DoW against Spain. Believe me: Allied situation is worser with a DoW than without. The only advantage is to confuse the Axis player :confused: and throw him out of concept. Be happy about the allied fault, rethink your plans, do the right things and everything will turn good. I wont tell you exactly what to do, the most fun comes from doing something by yourself and finding out how it works. Not from reading about or following advices... Zapp: It depends on what you do with your units ... The point is: you get 6 minor units instead of 7. Spain is Axis much earlier than usual + Gibraltar + virtual connection to Africa = a lot of mpp. After Barbarossa you get 3 times the plunder for the minors you conquer. USA is delaved several turns, Russia 1-2 turns. Axis have plenty of time to prepare, much better than usual. Thats a lot better than some mpp they dont get for this period from their normal minors. In contrary, the 1-2 turns longer time give them more mpp than usually in the end. Perhaps 2 russian armies near Odessa escape the initial onslaught, but everything else in Russia near the border is dead...The minors will be conquered one turn before USA enters. Thats another thing: Axis loose 120 mpp but Allies loose 180 mpp/turn until the minors get converted. My opinion is: DoW Spain without conquering it would be a bad move for Allies. But I think discussing in the forum if a Spain strategy (or which..) is an advantage or disadvantage for either side leeds to nothing. It has advantages and disadvantages and the result depends on your playing style. Its your choice which strategy you choose. If you think it gives you an advantage or it would make fun then try it, else leave it. Allies have so many possible strategies: Tech, fighting, Med, Norway etc... Spain is only one more option. [ August 21, 2003, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]