Terif

Les the Sarge: It depends on if Egypt is defended or not. Without defence (i.e. only corps) you only need to send the italian navy to bombard and the 3 italian armies + 3-5 corps with transports to land and kill the allied units. If there is a defence with ships, air and/or Hq, then you have to send a german Hq and 3-5 airfleets to Tobruk. Use your german air/italian navy to clear the path to Tobruk if necessary. Then nothing in Egypt can withstand a combined air and naval assault. You can blow away 1-2 allied units/turn and advance slowly but surely. Since you have time until late 1941, it should be no problem to reach Iraq long before Barbarossa. The only thing Allies can do to prevent Axis from taking Egypt is to take Tobruk and Tripoli. Preferably most of the italian navy should be destroyed with french ships and some transports taking the naval bases. Against a veteran player this is usually only possible with a preemptive strike at Italy (DoW + landings around Tobruk and in Italy at the same turn (forbidden in ZL, therefore a successful Allied Med strategy is not possible in ZL). ´ Without a preemptive strike Axis has no problems to protect its fleet and cities. In this case, Allies can only delay Axis in Egypt, but they can never stop them. So be careful which and how much units you send there, everything in Egypt/Iraq will be lost. If it is worth the mpp, depends on the damage in time/mpp you can do to Axis. [ October 26, 2003, 05:11 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

If you want a fight for Iraq and the Med, then you have at least two options (against a Veteran player): - either give Iraq to Allies and place some ships, units and a Hq near Egypt. But most likely Axis will kill all allied units there (unless you give them really a lot), since Tobruk cant be conquered and serves as an airfleet base... - or simply allow Allies to Dow Italy and land with transports. You only need to forbid the Rome gambit, but not the normal italian gambit. Then you have no guarantee for a fight for the Middle east, but if Allies wants to, they can do it successfully. Its only possible to hold Iraq/Egypt when Tobruk and Tripoli have been conquered, which is usually only possible with a preemptive strike (DoW + Landing in the same turn). If Tobruk and Tripoli are conquered and Axis needs to reconquer some italian cities in the mainland, this gives Allies enough time to establish a strong position in the Med, but still both sides can win the Med war and a lot of big battles will occur. If you want to be sure to have a Med war, then you can also combine option 1 with no2: e.g. give UK Iraq and allow the landings. Usually Allies wont give up Iraq so easy if they already have it and will attack Italy...

Hmm, I just had again a look at Fall Gelb. Yes, it is easier to play for Axis. They already have Poland, Denmark + Norway and will take LC in their starting turn. Allies cant go for LC, Spain or Norway. There are no risks for Axis any more, nothing can stop them. With additional 2 armies, 1 tank, 2 corps and everything standing near LC, they will get France within only a few turns. Allies dont have the time to prepare for defence and will be steamrolled. France will fall a bit later than in the 1939 Scenario since it starts in May, but Axis have still plenty of time to conquer all usual neutrals and US/russian readiness is low. Summary: Axis is very strong in "Fall Gelb" compared to Fall Weiss. Allies have not the time to prepare for defence in France or use any other strategy to hurt Axis. They cant collect some mpp for a long term defence and will have even problems saving their second Carrier in the Med. Chances are high, that the carrier + support ships will be destroyed. Therefore in my opinion, the 1940 campaign is not more balanced than the 1939 one. It is very much in favour of Axis.

Edwin: Yes, not too seldomly I made the same experience. Several times as UK in 1942 I had sold everything and every chit to make a landing in France and to finance the heavy airbattles. Often my opponent conceded, when he only had to attack my units a last time and my card house would have crashed, since my forces were so weak in reality...Similar things happened as Axis in Russia... But thats also part of SC: Just when you think you have lost, your opponent gives up

Hi SeaMonkey, The airfleet or carrier with the highest readiness intercepts. Tech, experience or distance doesnt matter as long as they are in range. And for readiness counts: unit strength, distance to next supply source and quality+experience of the supporting Hq . Your UK airfleets must have had a higher readiness than your USA ones. Perhaps your US air had a higher strength (1 point), but your UK air had the better/more experienced HQ (every experience bar increases the rating by 1, the equivalent of one strength point of the supported unit) or was not so far away from supply, than the US air was. E.g. its enough if you place your UK air in a city while the US air is one hex away... [ October 20, 2003, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Hi Condor Yes, you are right. Like everyone else I swear and curse upon the research system when it creates again a crazy result, not in my favour... . If I remember right, you got 3 advances in row or something like that, but thats SC . Something like this happens in nearly every game on one side or the other. Fortunately - at least since the catch up system - it is not such a problem, cause even with only 3 chits its no real problem to reach the same level in an acceptable amount of time. And it even has an advantage: Lv 1 airfleets are cheap to buy compared to Lv 4 (each Lv increases the costs by 10%!). And given enough time the tech gap will be closed soon . Besides, surprise is the main weapon of the Allies (only after they couldnt surprise veteran players any more, bids were going so high - remember the "good old days" when Allies could win against everyone without a bid...? ) So for all: never give up, only because you are behind in tech. Go in the defensive, protect your low tech units (If the enemy wants to do harm to them: then as UK send them to Ireland or Canada into a training camp. As Axis or Russia you can send them towards Siberia into a nice Gulag ) and wait until you have catched up . [ October 20, 2003, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

BTW: In my games as Axis, France falls usually at April 28, 1940. With bad luck or a strong defence it can take some turns longer, but in most games it is April 28 (+-1/2 turns). Therefore "before/during May 1940" is not so early anyway, its just average. [ October 20, 2003, 06:31 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Iron Ranger: All depends on: - Bid Level - how much both sides lost in France - Skill of yourself and your opponent - The strategy Allies chose - your motivation: is it only to win, or more to give a good fight (a game in the defensive can also be a lot of fun, even if you have not much chances to win any more. And if you win despite a bad position this can make you feel really happy ). Assuming you didnt loose too much UK forces in France (especially not your carriers or airfleets), you can still win the game even with a low bid. But you probably have to change your strategy if you have planned for a long France war. Adopting your strategy to a new situation is always the key to victory in SC and in a real war. Mainly you have to choose between a tech based strategy and a battle based strategy (to delay the conquest of the minors and to weaken Axis before Barbarossa). This depends on your ressources and your opponent (skill+strategy). Conclusion: - if your main goal is to win, your opponent is skilled, you lost a lot in France and play with a low bid: then concede - if your main goal is to have a good fight, you still have ressources or play with a good bid: then continue If you think you will loose, but choose the second option, you can consider to try the battle strategy: a lot of action during the whole game (attack the Norway invasion fleet, the Vichy invasion fleet, defend Spain and so on...) and even if you loose its a lot of fun.

If you sell a unit you only receive maximum half of the mpps it is worth (at supply 10). And usually they are at lower supply (supply 5 means you only get 1/4 of the costs !). For ships you even get only 1/10 of the purchasing costs. Therefore selling units is only the last option (especially when Axis tries a Sealion), except for some french units and the UK bomber. And its good to have that option in my opinion.

Hi Zapp, we posted simultaneously in the same minute ... I think what Shaka meant was: Hubert is a one man team. He has only a limited amount of time and money to program things. Probably he had no time to implement a double storing/checking system or something similar. But nonetheless, its a good idea from you for SC2 if it is easy to implement and Hubert has the time/knowlegde to do so. If you know how it can be done, you could perhaps contact him. Bill101: I fully agree... [ October 19, 2003, 06:14 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

We all play SC to have fun and for the honour, not for money. If someone cheats, he will have no fun and proves - at least to himself - that he has no honour. It is possible to hack every program, its only a matter of time, knowledge, effort and motivation. If SC got hacked, then it was obiously not so easy, since it took more than a year, so Hubert did a good job here. I had my argument with Zapp, but he never cheated in our games. During a Sealion Allies will sell every unit and research chit they cant use directly for the defence of England. So its really no problem to build a lot of corps there like Zapp obviously did. Rambo: You only have to use your brain and memory to know where enemy units probably are. Every unit has a defined amount of action points and you see in which direction it is moving, so you can be pretty sure where it will be, especially with a bit of experience. Then you only have to use some transports, corps or simply an airfleet to spot them....you dont need a "FoW sniffer", you only have to know the basics of war (reconnaissance is decissive) and the basics of SC. Then turn on your brain... I hope this discussion about cheating wont last long. We are a small comunity and know each other very well. Since the starting positions in SC are well known, it would be very difficult to cheat (even if it would be technical possible) without the opponent noticing it. At least veterans should be able to notice it. So even if someone would try to cheat he wouldnt be undetected for very long.... As far as I can see, nobody ever cheated in my games and I hope it will stay this way.

Yep, seems so... Zapp: I am still playing SC, for fun and PBEM and I am still in the forum. And yes, I had a lot of fun experimenting with SC and to find out everything about the game in the past. The only thing I dont do any more is playing a Zapp-League game and the reasons are well known to everyone who followed our argument. So lets stop it here, I dont want to repeat the whole story again and its over now. No need to continue our argument.

Zapp: I didnt say the no landing rule is bad in ZL. You consider competition the most important in the ZL and in this context you are right: the rule is necessary to achieve a balanced, standard and repeatable game without surprises. But in other aspects this rule has also some disadvantages. Its part of your effort to force the players into the standard game. Different strategies are difficult, especially a successful Med strategy is not possible in ZL. So in a ZL game the whole Mediterranean cant be used as a battleground. For pure competition, you are right: there it can be useful to limit the possible/allowed strategies. But I personnally like to do different things and not to repeat the same strategy/tactics over and over again, for me thats boring after a while. The fun in SC is for me to try different things, develope new strategies and tactics (not to forget: playing different opponents ). For me, this game needs too much time to play it only for competition purposes. I play SC to have fun DURING the game and not only to have a win or loss at the end. When I started to play SC last year, it was also a good motivation for me to win my games. So I understand that this is important for you. But since a long time this is not any more important for me (the first 200+ games I have been unbeaten ). I now play SC only to have fun and if my opponents are not so experienced I usually give them an appropriate advantage, so that they have a chance to win (or try a new and risky strategy ). I just deviated from the subject, but I dont want to refresh our argument, so just let it stay: we both play SC because of different reasons and I have nothing against the rule in ZL. Conclusion: An allied Med strategy is an option in a fun or PBEM League game and it can be a lot of fun. In a ZL game it is no option. [ October 16, 2003, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

My two cents concerning Tobruk :cool: : - With the current Z-League rules concerning Italy, an Allied Med strategy can not be successful any more against a veteran player. Here Rambo is right. Axis can prevent Allies from taking any italian city, Italy has its fleet and together with some german airfleets they cant be stopped in the Med by allied forces, only delayed. - in a non-ZL game where only the Rome gambit is forbidden and not the normal DOW + landings on Italy, it is possible for Allies to take and hold the Med. Here Bill Macon is right . If Allies DOW Italy + land units immediately, they can take Tobruk in the same turn, or at least cut it off from Tripoli and take it later. More important: they can destroy most of the italian fleet - if Allies take the two fleet bases with corps, Italy will even loose the whole fleet, no ship can escape. Axis need some time to reconquer the lost italian cities in the mainland, so Allies have enough time to take all african cities + Iraq without much resistance. Without italian ships and without a land base for fighters in Africa, its usually not possible for Axis to reconquer Africa in time before Barbarossa. In a non ZL-game an allied Med strategy is possible (and was often used before the ZL rule has been made). And it is a lot of fun for both sides. The game can be how it should be: Time is against Axis and not in favour like in a ZL standard game. Allies have the mpp advantage, Axis have the units and experience. A lot of possible battle grounds... But dont forget: an allied Med strategy has also some risks and if Allies dont take care they can loose England . Play a fun game or in the PBEM-League and try it. An allied Med strategy will make the game really different . [ October 16, 2003, 06:06 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

How to keep russian war readiness down: - After Poland place one unit in one of the two german border cities. - in October 1940: Place 4 units in and around (max one hex distance) the two german border cities. You need the 4 units when the minors join, but since you dont know when they do, the 4 units should be placed in October 1940 (Minors start joining November 1940). Only units in and around the 2 german cities count for russian readiness. Units in Romania are irrelevant. For further hints: http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=002198;p=1 [ October 15, 2003, 06:19 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

1.07b is patch 1.07 beta for the original version. It has been released after 1.06 to test the changes before the release of the official patch but free for download for everyone. It then became patch 1.07 final. Nothing mysterious . [ October 13, 2003, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Hi SixthArmy, It seems it is because you go for Norway first (the historical way). But its better to conquer France before Norway. If you go to Norway before France, then you are right: Allies have enough time to build up their forces and Germany will have a very tough time getting to Paris. Dont forget: Allies get nearly twice as much mpp/turn as Germany, so time is the key. Germany has only a small time window to get Paris before Allies outproduce them. If you do Norway first and Allies do the LC gambit, it can be too late to come through the enemy defence lines and you will probably loose. Therefore change your strategy and leave Norway neutral until the France conquest is over. If you want you can play vs me. My e-mail is in the profile. I have some time in the next days for TCP. Just say a time when to play (basis is forum time=US east time) or we can also start a PBEM game . [ October 13, 2003, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

This is a bit difficult to explain. Best would be to go to the opponent finder forum and play against an experienced player. Then you will see, it is no big problem to break through in France. But its a matter of experience: you can kill every new player and a lot of intermediate ones with a strong french defence, but not a veteran if he is prepared. Some guidelines: - Be fast in Poland and LC. Usually Poland falls turn 3 or 4, LC turn 2 (turn 1: operate/move 1 army, 1 tank, 3 AFs + Hq west). LC should fall latest in turn 3 or Germany has a problem if Allies do the LC gambit... - Together with the Denmark plunder you can buy 2 AFs (Allied LC gambit) or 1 AF + HQ (Germany conquers LC). - Germany has 4 AFs, UK only 2 + 2 carriers. The carriers have only 1-2 shots until they are heavily damaged and not able to attack any more (and they are very expensive to reinforce ) - If Allies use the french airfleet, be happy and force it to intercept. Without Hq this is very expensive for France and their ground forces are cannon fodder without Hq anyway. - Only use your air if you can finish off an enemy unit with them or force a carrier to intercept/attacking them directly. - stay away from the water, german units hates it to be bombarded by UK navy . - first take the hex northwest of the Ardennes forest, then the Ardennes. Then you can choose which way to go: either directly towards Paris, or if the opponent is strong: move south, take the french mine and cut off Maginot. Then you have a broad front to attack with your land units. - if Allies can do the LC gambit, then Italy will join and if necessary you can also use the way from the south: attacking through Italy without opposing UK air/carriers. Allies have only a very very small chance to stop an experienced and prepared Axis player in France. Summary: Play against someone who knows how to break through and you will learn how to do it very soon .

Just let them bomb the port... its much more expensive for the bomber than for the port . If you want to make it even more expensive for the bomber you can research anti-air technology or place an airfleet in range.

Hi Curry, In my first 150 games or so I also fighted for France and crushed Germany many times there. But as you know I prefer the longer games, so in the last 200 games (TCP + PBEM)I changed to other strategies. Usually I dont fight for France, cause this too often is a short war. Its more fun to go the whole way . I only used it in my later games sometimes against the Top players if I wanted a quick victory (e.g. against Rambo after he got the top spot the first time.. 2 hours later he lost the next game as Germany in France .. ). Therefore you never saw me using it against you. But if you want to see a full french defence, we can play a game . To break through a french defence: - If Allies do the LC gambit, then you need air instead of a third Hq. With 2 Hqs you can still command 10 units, so make sure they support the right ones (your attacking/defending units ). If you think Allies are too strong around LC, then go south and attack through Italy. With the LC gambit they join, so you can use the way through the south without UK air/carriers against you. - Without LC gambit, you have a wider front and can use more land units. Therefore a third Hq is better than air. If Allies defend with everything they have, then be careful with your units, so that they dont get exposed and destroyed. Use your air wise, dont forget to reinforce and only attack to destroy an enemy unit or to force UK carriers to intercept . This way it takes a bit longer to conquer Paris but you will get it. Usually you will loose your first dozen games against a good opponent with a full french defence until you have learned how to break it, this is simply a matter of experience . About the french airfleet: If you want the french HQ in turn 1, then you have to disband the AF. Together with the 2 battleships and starting mpp this gives 180 + 120 + 115 = 415 mpp. The Hq costs 395-410 mpp. If I dont fight for France and only want to delay the fall (+save mpps), then I keep the AF. After France surrendered, I disband the free french airfleet, so UK receives the 200mpp. Without tech the FF AF is useless in combat and costs only a lot of mpp to reinforce, therefore its better to disband it and use the 200 mpp for something better. Concerning the PBEM League: I am ready to play fun games from time to time - especially against opponents I didnt play so often in the past - , perhaps I will join your league in the future, but at the moment I play too seldomly. If someone wants a game, just e-mail me or have a look at ICQ... [ October 13, 2003, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Hi Curry, In my first 150 games or so I also fighted for France and crushed Germany many times there. But as you know I prefer the longer games, so in the last 200 games (TCP + PBEM)I changed to other strategies. Usually I dont fight for France, cause this too often is a short war. Its more fun to go the whole way . I only used it in my later games sometimes against the Top players if I wanted a quick victory (e.g. against Rambo after he got the top spot the first time.. 2 hours later he lost the next game as Germany in France .. ). Therefore you never saw me using it against you. But if you want to see a full french defence, we can play a game . To break through a french defence: - If Allies do the LC gambit, then you need air instead of a third Hq. With 2 Hqs you can still command 10 units, so make sure they support the right ones (your attacking/defending units ). If you think Allies are too strong around LC, then go south and attack through Italy. With the LC gambit they join, so you can use the way through the south without UK air/carriers against you. - Without LC gambit, you have a wider front and can use more land units. Therefore a third Hq is better than air. If Allies defend with everything they have, then be careful with your units, so that they dont get exposed and destroyed. Use your air wise, dont forget to reinforce and only attack to destroy an enemy unit or to force UK carriers to intercept . This way it takes a bit longer to conquer Paris but you will get it. Usually you will loose your first dozen games against a good opponent with a full french defence until you have learned how to break it, this is simply a matter of experience . About the french airfleet: If you want the french HQ in turn 1, then you have to disband the AF. Together with the 2 battleships and starting mpp this gives 180 + 120 + 115 = 415 mpp. The Hq costs 395-410 mpp. If I dont fight for France and only want to delay the fall (+save mpps), then I keep the AF. After France surrendered, I disband the free french airfleet, so UK receives the 200mpp. Without tech the FF AF is useless in combat and costs only a lot of mpp to reinforce, therefore its better to disband it and use the 200 mpp for something better. Concerning the PBEM League: I am ready to play fun games from time to time - especially against opponents I didnt play so often in the past - , perhaps I will join your league in the future, but at the moment I play too seldomly. If someone wants a game, just e-mail me or have a look at ICQ... [ October 13, 2003, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Different versions/patches: You can play PBEM (and TCP/IP) with different SC versions. At least with 1.06 and 1.07(+1.07b) this is possible. It only displays a message/warning that your opponent has a different version, but in the game it seems there is no negative effect. I am not sure, but I guess it uses the settings/changes from the player with the newest version (or probably it changes each turn (the settings of the current player are active) but this has the same effect in the end for 1.06-1.07). It is also possible to play with different language versions (e.g. english vs german). Then you receive the report at the start of your turn in your opponents language, but thats no problem - if you can read german . Different mods: No problem. The host loads the scenario and the data will be sent to the other player. So the second player doesnt need to have the scenario/mod, only the host. [ October 13, 2003, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

First post updated with French strategies and Sealion readiness effects.

First post updated with French strategies and Sealion readiness effects.

Hi Curry, As Iron Ranger and Bill101 already said: it all depends on your strategy and where you see the opportunities and threats (highly dependant on your opponent ). Allies can choose between dozens (or hundreds, depends on the definition ) of strategies and you need different forces/units for each of them. Therefore this is a very complex topic. But for the "early war" there are some guidelines. First for France: - make sure you can defend/ delay the conquest of France. Never retreat your forces to Paris (except you open a hex to set a trap, kill an enemy unit and close the gap...) or France will fall much too early without losses for Germany. - There are two main defence strategies for France: 1st: corps defence = France buys corps for every hex between LC and Paris. Then Germany usually needs until June/July 1940 until Paris falls (1-2 corps killed/turn). Low casualties for both sides, some armies will become free french, sometimes even a Hq. UK can save mpps and invest in all the nice things it needs later in the war, but Germany will also be strong. At the start they only need to send 1-2 corps to prevent early breakthroughs of Germany in France. The rest of the corps will be french ones. 2nd: fighting with a french Hq. There UK has to buy a lot of corps to build the first defence line. The french mpps will be used to reinforce/replace the 5 french armies that will kill any enemy unit that breaks through the british corps (no mpps left for french corps ). If possible UK should buy Montgomery to support the airfleets. BTW: to buy the french Hq: you can disband the AF + 2 battleships to build it in turn 1 (or wait until turn 2 + AF). Never leave your Med positions or even disband Med corps(=italian readiness increases). Then Italy will only join when Germany reaches the outskirts of Paris. Guidelines in general: - when airfleets have to fight, they need support by a Hq. Without a Hq it is very expensive and the enemy doesnt loose much. So buy Montgomery before you send your airfleets in a battle (if you dont fight with your air, Monti can wait ). - make sure you can defend England against an early Sealion (e.g. placing your fleet near the homeland, buying some corps/holding mpps back in cash...). - buy some chits in Jets and LR to stay competitive with german air, but dont neglect your Island defence. If the enemy is more advanced, then move your air out of interception range until your tech catches up. - everything else ("shopping list") totally depends on your strategy: 2nd Hq for Egypt, armies/tanks/corps for Egypt or Spain or Skandinavia or Africa... airfleets + tech... Gun laying radar + anti-sub...carriers...corps for raids at Brest, Brussel, Denmark, Med...and so on... [ October 13, 2003, 06:53 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]