Terif

Zapp: You compare Spain with the Rome gambit, thats like comparing apples and oranges... Against the Rome gambit no counter was possible, success rate around 100 %, Italy out of the war and 95 % of the Axis players would surrender. Therefore it has been forbidden (BTW: I have won against the Rome gambit as Axis and never lost to it...But its really unfair and boring against nearly every other player) But Spain is a normal allied strategy. Risky, counters are possible and even if successful Allies have no huge advantage, only a small one. But thats the case with every strategy: if successful the initiating side has an advantage. Otherwise it wouldnt do it . e.g. if Allies go for Med and sink the italian fleet they have an advantage. If Axis is clever and hides the fleet or send air cover it fails and Allies have a disadvantage... hundreds of other possible examples. BTW: declaring war to Spain without taking it in 1941 would be very silly from Allies, nobody did it until now (at least I dont know anyone) and I am pretty sure nobody will do it if he wants to win the game....frees up all Axis units ready for Spain invasion, readiness penalty and Axis will be perfectly prepared for Barbarossa since they have to do nothing else any more... A smaller front doesnt make much difference if they can place everything at the german border. Try it against me and you will loose faster than you can say "I surrender" [ August 21, 2003, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Zapp: You are right about the editor: It would be better if we had the possibility for off map production or to set a time when the bonus appears. But thats not possible in the current version... About Spain: Like with every new strategy you have to learn how to react and to counter it. You have been faced 3 times now with the Spain thing: 2 times you gave up in 1940 without really to try to conquer Spain. The 3rd one after you made some "newbie" faults: you failed taking Norway in one turn, as well as taking Vichy. And then you DoWed Romania and attacked from a one hex front in the north !! You gave up in March 1941 long before Barbarossa. So be angry with yourself and not angry that I developed a new strategy and that you have to think about how to counter it yourself. It is no fun doing the same in every game, waiting that the opponent is perfectioning his moves and when something goes wrong he surrenders and the same starts from the beginning...Game should not be over when the result is on the knives edge and all is open, only because you dont have a clear advantage any more... The spice of SC is: developing new strategies and counters. Expecting the unexpected, doing different things, trying new things and to give a good fight until there is really no chance any more. I have used the Spain thing now against some other players and no one had problems taking Spain. They did NOT attack Vichy without preparations and Spain fell usually 5-6 turns after France. UK has no chance blocking the way against the high experienced german air. In France they gained a lot of experience without interceptions. All UK forces/mpp are in Spain and usually they loose a good part of it. Consequence: If you dont give up all the time without playing, then you will see that it really ends in a very good and balanced (between equal players) game. Of course if Axis do it wrong and make a lot of faults like you did in our 3 games, then the Spain strategy is really a big advantage for Allies. But normally it is not. Allies loose nearly as many mpps in combat and from operating/transporting as they receive from plunder and ressources. And they cant research the first year like they normally do. USA comes in many turns later than normal and this compensates Axis for the lost plunder. The lost minor units are compensated by the plunder from the minors later. So e.g. if you count 1100 mpp plunder advantage for UK, then count also the ~20 +12 +12 =44 % readiness loss from USA. That makes 44/4 = 11 turns later USA. 11 x 180 = 1980 mpp disadvantage for Allies. And with this strategy Allies need a weaker Barbarossa or they have lost. UK is weak due to Spain and in the normal game Axis crushes Russias main force within 2-3 turns. But in the Spain strategy Russia has to fight and has to be a strong opponent. And this is what happens: it is not so easy any more to crush Russia, but Axis has much more time to fight their way east before USA joins, UK has recovered from the Spain thing and western Allies can start an invasion...On the other side Russia has the chance to get some neutrals (if they are still neutral )and grow strong. This is something that depends on which player is the better commander . [ August 21, 2003, 05:32 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Seems we posted simultaneously . Ok, then the file is corrupt or something else... [ August 20, 2003, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

hmm, this sounds as if Wachtmeisters password is wrong... Some things: About the unreadable SC directory: This has been addressed in the tech section before. This is probably because the file Kuniworth sent you has been set to "read only" from the e-mail programm/provider. Check the properties of the file and change it to read and write. About Kuniworth launching the game and Wachtmeister still at the password screen: This happened sometimes to me too. As soon as you join the IP address, the host enters the game. It is not necessary that the opponent enters the password (it is enough to join). But if the host tries to move units or send messages before the other player entered his password, the game looses connection and displays a retrieval error. Solution: If this is the first time you two continue the game and Wachtmeister didnt enter the correct password sometimes after the start, then I guess he entered something else as password than he has written down. Only possibility I see is to try all possible variations of the password. If you are very lucky it is only a technical problem and it is enough if both of you reboot and then connect again, but I dont believe it....

You dont get the minors units, but you get the plunder for them. In average 300, thats nearly the value of the units you dont get, but now you have german units, supported by Hqs and not minor units that cannot really fight. And Yugoslavia: first you have a good chance that they coup and if you want to be sure, then invade Greece and they will coup before Barbarossa nearly for sure. BTW: bids belong to the players and everyone can and should decide on his own how much he is willing to bid and which bid system to use.

Condor: 1. In case you would be right and Spain would be a real advantage for Allies: The Spain thing is only done very rarely. If you reduce bids, then you are forced to do it every time or you will loose against Axis with a low bid. 2. But this is not the case. The Spain thing is risky and doesnt provide much advantage for Allies. Only the war goes in a different direction than usual. And Russia still looses 5-6 border armies, 1 tank + 1 airfleet... they only have a better defence line. Frontlines are at a different location, but still Axis has a huge advantage without a high bid (between 2 experienced players !).

Codename Condor: The fun is not "watching Russia slowly destroying Axis" - Only if Axis does it wrong . Despite Spain, Axis is very strong and will conquer the minors (Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria) when it attacks Russia. The difference is that they cant destroy or cut off all 9 border armies, 2 tanks and the russian air like in the standard game... 2-3 turns after Barbarossa started, Axis should have mpp advantage as usual, but their starting position is not as strong as usual. Therefore Russia really has the chance to fight and strategy decides the game, not brute force at the first Barbarossa turn. [ August 20, 2003, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

The Spain invasion is only powerful if Axis make a lot of mistakes. Usually Allies have to leave Spain very soon or they will receive high losses. Allies use all their early mpps for Spain and the plunder for defence against Sealion. So in the end they are very weak in tech and air. The advantage is that Axis usually dont grow so strong before Barbarossa and they have a worser starting front for Russia. Because they cant attack Romania before Barbarossa. Russia really doesnt like it and readiness goes through the roof... Concerning the two Zapp games: The first one he gave up without reason after he conquered France, where he needed a bit longer than usual. But Axis had not the big advantage they usually have... The second one he gave up after he declared war to Romania and russian readiness increased 22%...besides he didnt get Vichy and Norway for a long time (Norway invasion failed without sufficient air support).

Kuniworth: No Spain is not a "game killer". It has advantages and disadvantages and doesnt provide a real advantage for Allies. The most positive about it is: It creates a totally different, more exciting game, that makes much more fun. Allies really can do something and fight all over the world and in the Med. Russia will not be crushed in the first 1-2 turns like usual. It is like every new strategy: at the beginning very effective, but after a while it can be countered too easily and you have to develope a new strategy again... Condor: I have improved the Spain thing. Just beaten Zapp with the new version, very unlikely that France falls too early now

Codename Condor played very well. This game shows: never do exactly what the opponent expects or you will loose . Especially after he had luck at the LC border and could kill some french units (Ardennes) easily, I should have changed strategy. It was to be expected that France would fall early. But I used the old strategies so often against Condor, I wanted to do something different at all costs, in this case: too high costs . The Spain thing is risky, but if successful creates a totally different and exciting game. Also I made a lot of mistakes in the defence of France: I attacked his units and killed some of them, but with the Spain strategy the most important is to delay Germany in France. More important I didnt abandon Maginot line after I saw he went along the coast. With these units I could have delayed the fall of France 2-3 turns, enough to take Spain. Even one more turn would have been enough: only one UK corps was missing to prevent the cut off by the german tank... I gambled and lost, but still it was fun trying something different [ August 19, 2003, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Iron Ranger: Allies attacked very aggressively and lost very much. Especially in Russia they killed 5 german tanks and more, but in the counter they usually lost twice as much. And Russia cant bear such losses very long. With 3500 mpp they can buy a lot at the start, but they have not the mpp later to buy new strong units. So every lost army/tank is gone forever and cant be replaced. And Rambo already mentioned: he landed too early in France and without Hq. Western allies had time, cause Russia was quite strong thanks to the bid, but they didnt wait for the right moment. Additionally, carriers are useless against german air without tech. So they were easily killed in the last battle. Without tech they have to be very careful not to be destroyed...

May 17, 1942: Great victory for Axis !! Italy reached Lv2 Gun laying radar, all ships had 3-4 bars experience... Italian battleship and german air kill 2 allied battleships and 2 carriers ! The pride of the UK navy is dead. In the east 2 russian armies killed in a counter after they destroyed the german tank. German forces move through an additional gap near Finland and capture the empty Leningrad. Some russian forces cut off between Leningrad and Minsk. Is this the end of Allies ?

April 19, 1942: Only 3 damaged allied units live (or better die ) near Brest. US battleships under air attack. Italian ships bombard US army and train... Since most german air is in France, air war in Russia is even: 3 Lv1 russian jets against 3 german Lv0 but experienced airfleets - no luck with research during 2 years now... Break through the "thin red line" near Minsk, some german tanks move through the gap. One tank lost near the central russian mine. Russian tank survives the counter at str 2. [ August 18, 2003, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

February 8, 1942: Minor fights in Russia. Allied navy retreats from Brest to protect carriers in the channel. Heavy airfights. High experienced italian ships (from Malta) bombard US armies. Brest port reduced to 0. Seems as if Allies will let their landing forces die, no reinforcements in sight, no naval battle...German corps and armies start killing Allied forces.

December 14, 1941: Was it a christmas present for Allies to get Brest or a trap... . 4 US armies landed without Hq. German air reduces Brest port so no reinforces or escape any more. 2 US armies heavily damaged by naval bombardment and ground attacks. Italian ships with improved Gun laying radar enter the battlefield. Strong german air and ground forces appear around Bordeaux... In the east: Riga and Odessa conquered. German armies and fighters move to the front, tanks reinforcing...

November 16, 1941 (B: turn3): Sevastopol taken, Riga under attack, Russian army killed near the central russian mine, Kiev conquered.

October 19, 1941 (Barbarossa turn 2): Portugal and Iraq surrender. Minor airfights in France. German tanks move deep into Russia, cut off Riga in the north and Sevastopol in the south. Russian mine in the center taken. Kiev under attack. Strong russian forces around Minsk, Smolensk and Kharkov spotted. Russian counterattack expected...

September 21, 1941: Barbarossa has begun... Axis DoWs Portugal, Greece(surrenders), Iraq and Russia. All 9 border armies destroyed or cut off. Russian tank, airfleet + cruiser killed. German tanks pour into Russia, crossing the river between Riga and Minsk. Russia starts with 3540 mpp... [ August 18, 2003, 06:28 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

June 22, 1941: Spain surrendered, Gibraltar and Bergen under attack. 2 Yugoslavian corps destroyed, capital will fall next turn.

June 8, 1941: Alexandria taken, Sweden surrendered. Madrid taken, but the last two damaged spanish corps continue fighting for one turn...

Next turn: Axis attacks Spain. Bulgaria joined 2 turns ago. Yugoslavia coups. 4 front war now . [ August 17, 2003, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

April 13, 1941: Axis attacks Sweden. UK corps near Alexandria destroyed, city will fall within 2 turns.

February 2, 1941: Norway converted, Brest and Suez taken. Romania + Hungary join.

November 10, 1940: Vichy France converted. UK cruiser near Brest under air attack...UK corps reduced to 5.

October 13, 1940: UK corps landed in Brest (bombed to supply 0). Attacked by Axis forces. Airbattles over the channel, UK battleship destroyed, second one heavily damaged. Italian landings near Suez.