SeaMonkey

Ouch! Two horror stories. This is what happens when we delegate responsibilities to a central governing body out of touch with the local inhabitants. Its either your money or your time and don't expect a just balance. You give a fortune to your supposed representatives to administer social programs, there is no doubt there will be wide spread corruption and monumental waste. Want to help your fellow man...we all do, but you know as well as me there are certain people that will take advantage of bureaucratic programs(rich and poor). I work with some everyday, some are not even citizens and they raid the entitlement benefits like its their right. What are YOU going to do about it? Hah!! You don't have a clue...join the club, neither do I, its too big, too complicated, and you better be careful about turning someone in, the lawyers will pounce. The people that are administering these programs are telling the people on them how to get around the qualifying criteria so they have more to administer to. Get it....its job security. Tell me who's got it better than civil servants. Hah, Flat tax...fair tax, yeah right....what are all those people that levy, collect, manage and run that whole complicated system going to do for a living after they lose their jobs. Get on the welfare system????

Ever read the rules Blashy? This will not be for the feint of heart. I hope I'm wrong, but just the thought of playing one turn makes me tired.

We don't want to just play it...we want to live it! SC gameplay should be about immersion in the era just as much as the challenge of competition.

Rampant consumption Gentlemen. The markets have gone wild and are in control....or should I say out of control. Well this is what we get, even capitalism needs some control, some mechanism of oversight. Then if we could just get everyone to be a little more considerate of their neighbors...its a start. A basic application of the "Golden Rule" breeds another. Time to hold the powers accountable, this thing called the internet has far reaching tentacles for establishing grassroot movements. Believe me, the politicians will have to listen to the public servants, no more career appointments, fair taxes, just regulations, a more simple existence. Ever notice the rhetoric of laws and regulations passed by the lawyers. Try reading the Code of Federal Regulations. Ever wonder why they complicate matters to such a degree? Confused? Now I love a society based on capitalism, rewarding human initiative and endeavors brings the specie to higher degree of awareness/achievement. But capitalism is guilty of creating the unnecessary. Creation of needs, a good definition for this economic model, and then sell it to you and me, spiralling commercialism, cascading pyramids of luxury. And you think you need them all!

Good guys...bad guys, it probably doesn't matter, with 6.7 billion inhabitants of the homo sapien genre we are rapidly approaching the "critical mass" of what this planet can support. They....yep..."they" again....say at 8 billion there will be a mass scramble for the remains. You think its developing now? Nature has a way of dealing with over population, infestations, I think we all know what result will be. Doesn't matter who or what instigates it, good guys, bad bacteria, nice astroid, evil volcano, its natural and natural is good....right? Problem is irresponsible actions, whether it be the most powerful world leader or a poor destitute Mom having another child she can't take care of. Bad decision making....over and over again ...times 7 billion Its people!

Understand nn, but popups clutter the program. We have enough now. What is "properties" for, the game manual? The fun is in discovery, dealing with the unknown is all we have to simulate the situation as it existed, something to neutralize our hindsight advantage. The better knowledge you have of the game mechanics the better your predication of the possible circumstances of your actions. Isn't this what each of us face in our everyday lives. Could it be that SC would be helpful in making our lives a little less cataclysmic? Let's don't dumb down our community, there's already an avalanche of that. Hold our brethren to higher level of achievement and let the players interact, the vets will bring the freshmen along. The weak will fall by the wayside, let them regress to other games. We'll all be the better for it.

Come on.......man.....I agree Blashy, if you can't predict the weather possibilities in SC and plan for them........well.. Your just cannon fodder!

Actually xwood its the right reason. Its a medium(oil) for perpetuating a condition....could have been anything that man covets, a bartering agent. If you want to keep the weeds from growing you have to kill the roots and then eradicate the seeds. Its called "Roundup". But the weeds always come back.

Hope your right JJR! Course "they" could have been just "conditioning" us with those history classes. All you can do is look at what you got now, question what you're seeing is factual, and apply it to what the common reference to the past was. Then....you can ...perhaps, and I use the term loosely.........deduce a conclusion. Condensed.....Use your common sense!

Come on guys, let's dismiss all this grandstanding. So the human condition is worse then a million years ago??? Compared to what? How many are there now and what was the count when things were better? All about greed is it? Maybe the media is selective about what they want you to know? Why would that be? Ever heard of "conditioned reactions"? Some of the species are surely content with what they have and some strive for more and yes there are consequences for actions, known and intangibles, good and bad. You can always question intent. So what's your intent? "He who lives in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."

Sorry DD, your about 140 years off. The US State department's expeditionary forces(ie. Marines) started .....hmm...I believe it was around 1798 with a little excursion(policing) in the Med region. I believe those opponents were of the same religious background as the current ones. See what happens when you don't do the job right the first time.

You want to keep this going into the "what if"? Then let's define Italy's role. Granted a state not long on natural resources, but perhaps with some better management could have been a potentially bigger player. Africa beckoned on Italy's doorstep and let's say they didn't waste their intial momentum on Abyssinia (Ethiopia). Lots of resources to supplement Italy's cause lay to the south. Now imagine that Italy and Germany had been more cooperative, a true fascist alliance, on the same page. Exchange of arms, techniques, strategies, a sharing of resources to further Italy's expeditions to the South. No forays into Albania and Yugoslavia, not to mention Greece, without each others prior consent and assistance. Now the Suez is closed by a joint German-Italian escapade and what then is Franco's position? Gibraltar definitely looms as a glaringly critical strategic objective. Closed and the Med becomes an Axis Lake. Well?????

Bravo Skrive, ....you get it! ......And welcome to the community.

Time will tell DD. We'll see how long the legs are on this game, how it evolves and sustains the enthusiasm. Hexes vs Squares......actually I've got a preference for the squares, but I understand the attraction to the hexes and I would like access to both. Square movement is weird, but it excels in combat. Supply could be handled better if it was calculated at the instance of combat. For a defender that endurs multiple ground attacks(excl.air & bombard.) it would be on a deteriating scale just like readiness and morale if subsequent movement of the attacker puts the defender "out of supply". Once the attacker has enveloped the defender subsequent attacks would decrease def.supply by 50% per attack, never reaching zero, but slowly eroding away as attrition usually does in high combat situations. Remember our time scale here, a week to a month, sequentially. The instant supply feature would be a valuable addition to an already great game.

Right on Bob. This balance is very precarious, just subtle changes will throw it off and there will have to be more adjustment, trial and error. I know this community is up to the task. I have been again infused with enthusiasm of the relative level playing field that exists in SC2. Actually it is a very unique condition for wargames as usually one side has an advantage, which we witnessed in SC1. But, the "winds of change" never cease blowing and sometimes a step back is necessary for a leap forwards. :cool: Damn it! Just when I had the perfect Axis strategy (cookie-cutter) figured out. Oh well ...back to the drawing board!

Damn DD, you've got my attention now, I concur about the sentiments you have expressed about CEaW. Don't have the game, but have been following the comments, reviews and AARs on 3 different forums and have concluded this game needs a lot of work. Now back to the real gem, SC. WoW!!! 2nd most favorite WW2 battle for me after North Africa is B of the B. DD we are on the same page and I would love to assist you in its recreation with SC. Actually I did a port of Watch Am Rhein (SPI mega game) to TOAW, never quite finished, but needless to say, I have many opinions about the presentation. Of course you all know that Panther is coming out with "Battles from the Bulge" using its highly acclaimed AA engine. This will be the ultimate "Bulge" game, although it will only be set piece battles from that campaign and not the whole scenario, which leaves room for the SC creation. To reiterate the age old cliche', "It doesn't get much better than this", in referral of the value SC represents.

I bought 3 copies of SC1 and two of SC2. I'd do more if I could find people interested in wargames like this. Right now I'm just holding onto my one SC2 copy awaiting the expansion in which case I'll distribute the SC2 copy to some lucky gamer. By the way HC, will I need the original SC2 for the expansion pack or can I purchase a whole new package with all the updates/patches? Will I lose any of the old scenarios or will they all be included, especially the entry "Fall Weiss" for H to H competition? Now....it just seems that you(HC) made a little subliminal referal to another aspiration....HMMmm. I'm not sure....I could be misleading everyone, but if I had my preference I sure would like to see the SC model expand to encompass the Pacific WW2 theater. I know that's a tough call, the dynamics are so different and then there is all that complication for the AI to deal with. Not an easy endeavor. Its like this, I've been through many wargames over the past 45 years and I've never been exposed to a truly good Pacific game in the strategic scale. One that plays easily as the SC engine allows yet has that resilient depth for replay. I've looked, I've hoped, I've actually been excited about a few prospects, but it hasn't happened yet. IMO, HC, you have the gift for that creation, it won't be easy, probably not profitable, initially, but then there is this SC legacy for basis. All I can say, if you go down that road you can count on my support....you can count on it anyway, but I will step up the best my time allows to promote such a creation and of course the easy part of economics is a given. Its a risky business...but so is life...so what? Actually I see this as an investment for my retirement, same as 401K, Roth IRAs, traditional IRA, pensions, gold, diamonds, equities, cash, real estate, whatever, its just as important. For when the Lord calls me home I hope that I will be playing SC....ok...maybe in the lineup paddling to catch a nice little freight train(wave) or better riding it....or maybe riding something else . Well....1 out of three ain't bad.

Ha! I knew you'd eventually see the light SO. Others do, but then they shut their eyes, squinting to keep them shut....blocking the light. Trying to ignore.....funny that ignore exists in ignorant. Currently, my ignorant opinion is that SC2 is head and shoulders above anything else in this genre. Seems ...maybe a few others agree.

I smell "bargain-bin". Sorry DD I won't be grovelling with you until we get to single digits(<$10)........but Maybe the sequel.

Wow!!! Now this reminds me of the old SC forum days. Seems we're going down the road to the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk. Do I recollect a designer of a campaign of the same name set in SC fashion? Along with that other classic "Z-Plan". Could be my memory escapes me.....could be........NOT! Can't add anything here but an opinion already expressed......just had to shamelessly enter into such a civil discussion feeling honored to be in hallowed company. Dissent or concur, doesn't matter, the SC forum has always represented a lively platform for respectful exchanges of ideas. Gentlemen...I salute you. Could be the world might learn something from examining this small microcosm.

The two in the Baltic usually stay until Russian navy gone, or help cordon off a Sealion invasion area, or break out into Atlantic to divert RN in a Sealion attempt, or add to your growing Wolfpack of high teched mauraders for later uses like intercepting Amis, convoy raiding, Med clearing, etc. The starting Atlantic sub, Hmmmm....well you could hide it for later use, porting in France, Spain, Algiers, usually in 41, it'll limp in without supply. Or......simply speaking, that's the essence of SC2 isn't it....two letters......O R .... :cool: elaborately simple, yet emphatically engrossing. :confused: Oh yeah...back to that starting Atlantic U-pack. Raid for MPPs, diversion timed for Sealion, OR !!!!

Yep! Agree Blashy, pretty simple, as for Denmark, a couple of AF attacks and move in with a motorized corps. Benelux, an army or armor after an AF or before, maybe another army, adios LC. Collect plunder and bump readiness for next turn Fall Gelb. France in 3 or 4, maybe 5 if they got IW1 and the UK makes a big mistake and helps. Latest start for Gelb, june 4, 40, its over by august. Now what?

Thanks Minty and I of course agree with your assessment of many paths to glory, but ......you knew that was coming...right? I'll counter that a knowledgeable Allied opponent can stop a Sealion most of the time. I'll grant you that the UK must concentrate on that task and can't really afford outside transgressions like Norway and the Med. After the threat of Sealion has passed.....watchout. If the Axis tips his hand too soon the UK can be a tough diversion and the Axis can't afford that preBarby. He must keep up the auspices of a massive neutral expansion that is imminent, making the UK react to his plans and not the reverse. Anyway....there are probably other measures to an Axis victory and that's what we're here to discuss in the crucial time period, post France...pre USSR. To me this is the challenge of today's SC2 Fall Weiss campaign, not to discount the other pitfalls that develop after Barbarossa, but never the less ....the Key: early posturing. Heck, let's let the forum decide...plenty of good players here. I'll decree to their conclusion. Well guys?

You have 3 choices to neutralize Red armor which can often be at HT2 upon invasion. AFs, AT, or HT for German units, singularly or in conjunction.

This is a good tutorial for the amateurs, but veterans know the crux of SC is what you do after the fall of France and before Barbarossa. This is a very crucial time for the Axis and IMO, Barbarossa must kick off early for Axis success against a veteran Allied opponent. French surrender is not paramount as long as it occurs before the end of summer 1940. What is important is preplanning for post France goals and this must occur before Fall Gelb, the proper leverage and positioning is a must. Do not allow your strategy to be derailed by foolish British tricks. Stay focused, there can be much flexibility for the Axis, even in conjunction with Barbarossa. Axis Key: effective early prosecution of Barbarossa.