Nidan1

That is one example...and nicely portrayed in an episode of "Band of Brothers as well. How then do you explain the fanatical resistance put up by the Hitler Jugend Division against the British around Caen? Certainly the young Grenadiers, mostly teenagers in 1944, had never seen combat before, but yet they fought with the characteristics of combat veterans. Both the 12th and the 17th were SS units, trained and led by veterans and equipped with the latest weapons. Both would be considered green by the factors we are discussing here, but could be considered superior to a comparable Wehrmacht formation. However, one unit broke fairly quickly under pressure and the other fought for weeks also under intense pressure. IMO there are many factors other than just not being shot at before that influence the performance of novice troops in their first taste of combat.

Wouldn't you agree that in the time frame 1943 to the end of the war in Europe. Especially at the time of the Normandy landings, that it was the American and to some extent the Canadian forces who had the most number of "green" troops. As you said, training aside a soldier is "green" until he has actually seen and survived some level of combat action. Even the 12th SS Panzer Division had mostly green infantry troops with a liberal addition of East Front veteran NCO and officer types, but would that unit in its entirety be labeled "green", certainly not veteran, but somewhere in between. My point being that troops who have not been in combat themselves can "feed" off the confidence and savvy of combat veterans that are also part of their platoon or squad. There has to be some level of consideration for the fact that there are some veteran troops mixed in with the green ones. How many depends IMO opinion on the country involved, how you could model that in the CM world, I guess would be to have mixed levels of experience among platoon members as well as additional leadership bonus', which for the most part is being done by scenario designers now. I can also say that from personal experience that having a veteran or two or three in your outfit, while it doesn't completely make up for the lack of combat experience in novice troops, does increase confidence and trust levels, and shows that one can survive the madness if you just rely on what you have been taught.

Or live next door to a network security expert, be very nice to him and his family, and when you do have that occasional problem with Norton or any other Mfg.'s anti virus stuff or any other software problem, give him shout for help over the fence, while he's relaxing in his pool. Works for me every time!

No FOs are needed for airstrikes in Red Thunder, right? It would be logical to believe that the same will be true of the upgraded BN and FI.

Are we attracting old refugees from the Goodale Thread?

Dont let it hit you in the arse on the way out.

I would have expected nothing less of you, since you are no mere mortal, but a man versed in all manner of things both scientific and cultural, far superior in raw intellect than the other small minded, ignorant fools, like myself, who inhabit these digital threads.

JasonC I think your second explanation was a bit more understandable for me, and I appreciate your willingness to clarify. I am only speaking for myself when I say that your earlier post was about as clear to me as a lecture on quantum mechanics. I understand the real life effects of accuracy vs. volume in close infantry combat with small arms, but translating those real life effects into computer software algorithms that attempt to duplicate those results is beyond my understanding. BTW what's a "nerf", and don't tell me its a spongy dart.

To use JoeMc67s words, JasonC's last post has totally discombobulated me. I don't profess to be all that knowledgeable on how software code translates to actions in the CM world, but really how far down into the weeds did he go?, Are there a dozen posters in this forum that know what the heck he is talking about?

You can basically do that now with most German infantry formations and some Russsian ones. How small would you want to go? You can have two man teams now.

Hmmmm. sometimes the dialogue in there seems more normal. I will have to ponder that.

Once again we have the strange behavior of a poster planting a request that has obviously garnered some debate pro and con, and never coming back to re-post or comment on what has been said by others. In three forums to boot. You would think that superwoz would at least comment on the two additional pages of posts in this forum. I find that to be the supremely weird, but that's just me. Maybe I have too much time on my hands, or maybe I'm weird to think this way.

Consider the fact as to how the tactics of infantry combat have changed both during and since WW2. All the nations entered the conflict with bolt action infantry weapons, and probably trained their soldiers to be as proficient as possible with the rifle that they would be carrying into combat. Timed, accurate infantry fire, at range, was considered to be desirable. The bolt action or semi-auto rifles fulfilled that notion. Early in the Pacific War Marine Corps infantry still carried the bolt action Springfield, which was replaced by the M-1 sometime after the Guadalcanal campaign. The Americans were the only ones with a semi-auto infantry weapon for all soldiers. Automatic weapons were usually carried by specialized troops in most armies, early in the war, and as has been said before it is not a stretch to believe that infantry troops had some knowledge and rudimentary proficiency with Mp-40s, Thompsons, and early models of Russsian SMGs. As late as 1944 some German "Erzatz" infantry formations around Arnhem were armed with obsolete Italian Baretta 38a SMGs because they were not considered to be "front line" units. In CM, Russian SMG units are deadly, but you have to get them into closer combat ranges to take advantage of that effect. At some point in the war, the "amount of bullets going out" became more desirable than the "accuracy of the bullets going out". This concept is still in effect today, and only snipers usually carrying a bolt action weapon. In CM at closer ranges in urban and bocage type environments the automatic weapons and MGs keep infantry pinned, and allow for more accurate mortar fire to cause the casualties. CM models this quite nicely I think. In a QB if you load up on Russian SMG units, you are going to have to close very tightly with your German opponent, or sit back and wait for him to come to you, to take advantage of all that firepower. With the advent of the MP44, the AK47 and the M-16 and then all the auto weapons that have entered service since, most armies completely discarded the notion of accuracy for the concept of sending as much lead downrange as possible. Good accurate, longer range rifle fire still has its place in CM, a combination of accuracy and volume will lead to sucess in most engagements.

Germans vs. Brits....which game are you talking about, this is the Red Thunder forum, no Brits here...in the game I mean.

I'm good thanks....still playing the game in its latest iteration. The old games will not even load on new PCs. We have come a long way!

Actually, we've all been transported to Atlanta, its like an OZ thing. Emrys is sort of like Todo, or maybe he's the Wicked Witch of the East, I'm not sure anymore. Stick around, the Munchkins should be showing up soon. (your cue Radley) How have you been Emma?

Are they around your throat???

They are available on-line at reasonable cost, plus free shipping.

This Thread is about nothing.....and everything. The hidden messages are there for all to see.

His enlarged prostate has made that feat impossible. No arcing going on there.

The epitome of understatement!

Kind of a left-handed compliment, I agree. Knowing the size of his head you are probably right.

Most of the truly sordid stuff played out in the Peng Thread which is why some of you old timers may have missed the drama as it went down. The public stuff was interesting to say the least, what went on off line probably could have created its own reality show, but I can't speak with any knowledge to that. Dorosh was a wealth of information, he has his own wargaming website and another that pays tribute to the sacrifices made by Canadian troops during WW2. Usually smart people are just a bit off kilter, take Emrys for example.

DVRing is the only way to watch television programs anymore. Either that or buying the full season DVDs or streaming them on line. You pay astronomical prices for cable TV and satellite, and still you have to sit through endless inane adverts. Some on demand stations have disabled the fast forward function, but it seems they limit the amount of commercials. I feel your pain, the amount of commercials do ruin the enjoyment of watching a decent program.

That was the German TV show, "Unserer Mutters, Unserers Vaters" no?