Agua

Go into your file directory, look under Game Files, and there's a folder named saved games.

Oh, that's fine Steve. You did make a very attractive map. My point was simply each of the "biases" you listed in the quoted post simply are of no consequence. The presence of mortars doesn't matter because they can't be used. You might as well have given them a 2.5 ton GMC set up in the sunken road - it couldn't be used either, but that would hardly qualify as an unrealistic advantage which favors the player. It's the same with each of the "bias[es]" you listed. What difference does the lack of C2 make for the AI if: (1) the individual units are so spread out that information sharing sould not allow combined firing assistance (borg spotting) anyway; or (2) through AI planning (or some other mechanism I do not understand) artillery is pounding everything anyway so that indirect spotting is unnecessary? Finally, if in reality troops were unable to step foot through an opening in bocage because of trained German MG, they simply wouldn't go through those holes. So that is no "bias" of any consequence in favor of the US player player either. And all of that is fine. But your post is deceptive in as much as it appears to communicate to the player that he is given unrealistic advantges when, in fact, they are immaterial in the contrext of the scenario design. Back in CMx1, I used to set up some pretty mean, nasty reverse slope defenses in H2H play as well. So I can appreciate what you've put together there, and its immpressive. I also recognize it for what it is: like a skull and bones on a bottle liquid under the cabinet. I'm not going to drink that either.

1. Well, I haven't found a spot where any unit can sit for as long as it would take to call indirect fire before being pulverized with German mortars. I suppose if I knew the location of the sniper beforehand, I could take the target tool and find LOS for direct fire mortar, but that would be pretty unrealistic, and it wouldn't be able to get off many rounds (if any) before some form of arty would take it out. 2. I don't understand how the editor works, but if they do not have C2, then how are they calling arty on my troops whenever they sit in any location for more than 2 minutes? Or are sniper teams given radios here? Serious question, not a smartassed one. 3. I can't get 60 meters beyond the setup zone into the wheat field without a sniper, in this order: (1) murdering my scout team moving on "hunt"; (2) breaking the remainder of the squad which moves up to the murder site; then (3) breaking the other two squads of the platoon when they lay prone trying to support the earlier squad. By saying that "Americans can, for the most part, deploy into a bocage field unmolested", do you mean they can step into the fields from the breaks in the bocage? If that's the case, then yes, that is true, at least with regard to exit from the setup zone.

Yup, Steve, you've designed one tough scenario. SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS ( ( ( ( ( Appreciate the hints in the designer notes concerning arty. Knew it was going to be filled with trps. What I DIDN'T anticipate was that a single sniper could break an entire platoon (yes, 3 squads) in a wheat field when using two squads to pin with fire and advance with a third. How in the hell does that happen? Is the sniper team elite / fanatic or something? My boys can only manage to run in panic and land on, apparently, trps. Probably two squads are already KIA in that field and they couldn't have advanced 200 meters from the berm. Found the farm road filled with mines as well. I anticipated an ambush somewhere on that road, the most obvious place being at whatever action spot was isolated from support due to the curves in the road (no disappointment there). The idea that a mine or two would be lurking somewhere on the map was an accepted risk as well, but mutiple hedgehogs on a dirt road with, what? a half dozen mine tiles? I've noticed through studying LOS, there are depressions in the fields and I anticipate you've got some prime reverse slope kill zones there are well, though I have no intention of finding out. My solution to this scenario would involve napalm; lots and lots of napalm. This one just looks too stacked against the player to entice further play.

Yeah, the benefits derived from the basic game commands / orders, and the information provided from even basic tasks such as selecting a unit are important (many of which I'd be willing to bet, most players aren't even aware of), but in the end it comes down to creating "unfair" matchups using terrain. E.G, clearing buildings: Just area target the crap out of each floor that inf are suspected to be hiding. They'll either become uncomfortable and crawl around, giving away their position, and / or start firing back.

There are a lot of, shall we say, "fables of superior micromanagement" floating around the CM community.

Tanks will crush wire. It adds to the cumulative damage to your tracks though along with traversing hedges, low walls, fences. This scenario in particular is rough on tracks and you can end up with immobilized tanks simply from running over too much rough stuff.

Agree. I think a completely blind go at this one, having read no spoilers or hints, is pretty much a discouragingly improbable proposition.

Well, using the approach I offered, it wasn't difficult at all. BUT, I only came up with that because a traditional combined arms approach to victory without near complete destruction of my own force appeared impossible. Womble's perseverance demonstrates otherwise, but that is for more micromanagment than I have any desire to undertake. ASSUMING someone takes the traditional approach, it appears to me to be about the most painful mission of any which shipped on the CD. I've played every stand alone mission on the CD, from both sides where recommended, and this is the last of the campaigns I am still working through having finished the others. There about 3 other missions I've run across which are pretty tough. The most difficult, in my opinion, is A Delaying Action. To me, it was far, far more difficult than this one. I was saving games and reloading saves like it was a first person shooter on the most difficult level. But, trying to view School objectively, without the benefit of hindsight, taking an infantry centric approach, School is probably more difficult. I've !@#$3d about Delaying Action way too many times and MikeyD probably wants me strangled so I'll shut up about it. In The Road to Montebourg Campaign, Hell in the Hedgerows CAN be very difficult, or it can be satisfyingly challenging, depending upon which AI plan you draw and which approach you take. THAT was one I ended up with a draw the first time, then took a different axis of advance the second time, and cleaned its clock. That second approach I took, was a challenge, but not one that was just overwhelming. The first approach, with the AI plan I drew, was probably not as painful as School in terms of losses, but achieving a total victory was probably equally unobtainable. The third fairly difficult mission is also in the Road to Montebourg Campaign and I believe it is styled Le Ham, but it is not in the same league with an infantry oriented approach to School. I've read there is one more later in this Campaign that is also a !@#$@. Don't get discouraged. I started the game with the single missions, alphabetically, and the first up on the menu was, you guessed it, "A Delaying Action". So, I know where you're coming from, but if you don't want to try the amour only crossing, then just move on to some other scenario, because they are nowhere near as difficult as School.

Not on any of my last two runs. I played the scenario three times, with no saves or restarts. It may have the first time, but I know it didn't the second and third times. I assumed it was due to the darkness because within probably less than one minute after the wire was blown, the barrage started. The second time, I'd had pioneers still in the bridge area and the bomboardment was there. The final time, after I'd rushed the squad off to the left, the bombardment landed on the road, between the bridge and the final bit of hedge that borders the road. I looked at that and thought it was too obvious and bound to get some HE attention, but it never did.

If you read my posts, I didn't even use any infantry. I advocate a tank only crossing of the bridge. Yes, 11 KIA, and 15 wounded. One more time. During setup, move EVERYTHING behind the treeline on the left or way over on the right for movement during the first turn, EXCEPT 1 squad of pioneers, and the two FOs. First movement orders - run on FAST [edit] one SQUAD of [end edit] pioneers up to the V of wire from the front of the bridge - just run their asses straight down the road with the terminal waypoint at the front of the V. Issue a blast command accross the V. Once they blow up that section of wire, run them hard to the left, then straight back to the treeline with all the other inf in hiding There will be no need to mark mines because they will have blown them up when they detonated the V in the wire. First movement orders - Veteran FO - there is a rocky high spot in the plowed field on the left in front of teh stream. Run your Vet FO on the high spot, on the front side of it. Give them a short covered arc. Reg FO - run them hard to the right, avoiding the road, and straight over to the high spot on the field to the right. Actually, just a little forward of the highest spot. There is a fence with a tree or two there. Actually, behind the tree a little ways. If you eyeball it, you'll see the rise of the land. You want your FO on the forward end of the highest spot. Give him a covered arc too. In fact, you can get him close to that spot during setup without having to scurry him across the back half of the map. Again, eyeball it. Run, again avoiding the road, run a couple MG teams over to a little hedge on the right side of the map sort of fronting the stream. They're going to get creamed - that along with the ammo bears comprised 8-9 of the 11 killed (the other two were the engineers who blew themselves up through sympathetic detonation of the mines that were formerly under the wire you blew up above). Now, sit back and do nothing. Absolutely nothing. Let the sun brighten up the landscape for better observation. When any reinforcements come on, quickly RUN them to some cover before the AI gets any bright ideas. When the TANKS come in, quickly move them back to the left hand side as well, and get them there in reverse as needed, with facing changes, so that they're ready to get on the road when needed. The MGs you moved to the hedge should bring up some german units in the front of the two plowed fields. Hopefully, an ATG gun or two will pop up as well. I still advocate do nothing, even if you have located the ATGS, until the 105s come in. As it gets lighter, your FOs and / or the MGs will start to locate more and more units. IF you see sand bags of the ATG emplacements, then go ahead and call a single point strike with one of the 105s on it. Do not move your tanks out until all ATGs you can locate have been destroyed. The 105s are VERY accurate, so be ready for your FO to order cease fire as soon as an ATG is destroyed. If by the time the 105s arrive you haven't located any ATGs, I'd still give it a few more minutes for the sun to rise a little more. If after that, you still haven't located all the ATGS, or you have located less than all the ATGS but destroyed all that you have located, pick the tank with the -2 commander (he's the worst of the lot and if he gets blown up, its the least loss - though I didn't lose a tank). Give him a move command down the road - make sure you don't have his icon selected so you will be able to get the benefit of seeing the information observed by ALL units within LOS. For certain any of the 76 PAKs remaining will raise up at this point, and may well even fire a shot - possibly hitting Mr. -2. Unless you're unlucky, it won't destroy that unit. Once a shot is fired by any ATG, hit pause immediately, cancel all orders to that tank, put him in reverse. Look for the ATG - or for the sandbags. If you don't see it, then keep him in reverse so that he'll find a spot out of LOS. Repeat this process, sending him down the road, and watching for an ATG to pop up, then reversing as necessary. I only had to do it once due to a change in the location of the ATGs from the second go round, otherwise, I already knew basically where the ATGs were, and just waited for them to pop up. You know there is an ATG on the other side of that copse of woods, be looking for the sand bag. If you still can't find that last ATG, go ahead with your tanks, giving long move orders, down the road, and across the bridge. Issue the orders one at a time, in real time, so that there is spacing between them and they don't bunch up. Just long movement orders, with one waypoint at each big turn, then one at the far end of the bridge, then another one immediately off to the right and slightly forward so there is room for all on the right after they clear the bridge. I don't know what you were trying to do, but you want the tanks to cross the bridge, not go through the swamp. As soon as each tank clears the bridge, go hard right, off the road. Do not go any further on the road, just clear the bridge and straight off to the right. Start sending them forward, off the road, on hunt. IF you haven't located that last ATG, then send Mr. -2 forward on the right side of the road. That ATG is going to pop up, at the latest, once the first tank gets within its LOS, so be on the look out for it, and immediately pause and reverse the tank that gets fired upon. Now, with the other 105 howitzer, again, give a point target on that last ATG or the sandbag. Again, be ready to immediately ceasefire once its destroyed. You now have all of your 105s, except for the few you used to take out the ATGS - approximately 12-15 rounds total inclusive of the ones which were in the air when you called for cease fire. You have all your 81mm, because you haven't fired a round. Finally, you have all your 60mm as well, and your tanks across the river. I would NOT use my tanks to try to take out those ATGs. Womble may be great at this, but I'd let the arty do it because the tanks are key to killing everything across the river and I don't want to risk them. I say use the 105s to blast the hell out of the units in the front lines of the plowed fields on both sides of the roads. I choose thise because it will kill their asses and the barrage lasts a LONG TIME. plenty of time for you to get your tanks forward, on hunt or slow, to that last line of defense along hedges before you get to the hill. Use your 81s in linear barrages on the hill, full, max, whatever. Use your 60s to hit any odd foxhole that wasn't covered with the 105s - I think there are a couple outside the plowed field on the left. You should probably have a 60 or so left - use those on the hill as well or better yet, along the last few hedgerows where the final defensive line is at. Now, you should be driving towards the second line of defense, with the 105s pulverizing the hell out of everything in the fields beside you. Some of those may pop up and run in panic - let your tanks mow those down on hunt. You've got plenty of time here. Once you get towards that last set of hedgerows prior to the hill, here is a shreck on the left of that last line, get behind the hedgerows, with your tanks en masses so that they cover each other. Stay a good distance away from the hedges. Proced with cleaning them up. Move towards the hill. Do not enter the green objective portion, just move your tanks on hunt or slow, along the front of the objective and along the sides of it. Thoroughly. The AI should surrender. If it doesn't, you can choose either carefully go into the green colored objective area and hunt down anything cowering which is left and/or send tanks down to mop up. Hint - a lot of the broken units will have run to the very, very back, behind the green objective area. You can mop up quickly on those by staying near the back. Alternatively, or simultaneously, you can break off a tank to go on a hunt back along the front of the plowed fields to wipe out anything left. The AI will surrender. You don't have to occupy any objectives or anything, it will flat out surrender. I thought about taking a screenshot of the victory screen, but that's just not my style.

you've already got it. either wait for the stuarts to showup and let them do it, or let your inf do it from the sides and rear. That's the way I did it. Piece of cake.

Interesting. I'll have to check that out.

Oooooooohhhhhhhhh... You've thrown down the gauntlet. I'll check it out when I get home.

@ Womble. Your total victory is impressive as well. I'm really surprised - not by you, but that it can be done with anything other than shreds of inf remaining (to the extent that Total would be impossible due to friendly casualties). Those 105s are deadly accurate on specific point targeting. In the last attempt, each ATG was wiped out within the first four rounds. Of course when you call a cease fire, another four rounds or so fall, but there was still plenty left to blast the hell out of the first line of defense on linear targets. Everything else, 81s / 60s, put to use against stray foxholes, and the hill.

As I said, there's no amount of smoke or split squad timing that will enable you to get enough infantry across that bridge in combat effective condition to grind down that deep defense. It's possible to get a draw or minor victory, but your force is going to be in bad shape for the remaining missions. I tried the mission again last night and incorporated some of the conversation with Womble and my own hindsight. First, it appears the sympathetic explosion from blowing the V in the wire eliminates any mines which would have any effect on tanks, so marking the mines in a "no inf" crossing is useless. Second, the ATG locations had changed from the prior go, so I had to bring a tank forward to the edge of the village a couple times to draw out the ATGs, but it worked. No reloads or saves. Another Total Victory, with only 11 KIA and 15 Wounded (which was due largely to a blind AI arty strike back in the field on the left behind the treeline where I'd moved all inf and support). [Edited to include the following:] re: "marking mines .. useless". That refers to the front minefield. The minefield on the other side of the bridge would need to be discovered unless you just immediately shunt the tanks to the right once you clear the bridge.

Well, the only two user made scenarios I've played so far, I really like: counterattack at Ladenstedt, and Spam & Jam.

Fun little scenario, isn't it?

Hmm.... well thanks for going to the trouble to correct my misunderstanding.

Well, having been a CMx1 fanatic, I was pretty sure unless it was !@#$, I'd be spending many, many hours with it, but this was confirmed when I downloaded CMSF in order to familiarize myself with the UI. When CMSF original demo came out, it was pretty rough, and I never gave it further consideration. Fast forward to a couple weeks before the CMBN demo was released, and I found CMSF v1.31 was a very, very polished engine. I knew then that CMBN was going to be up to the standards I've come to expect from CM.

Could be Womble, could be. [Edited to include the following:] You may well be right now that I think further on it. The first time I tried it, I'd run all three Eng teams to the bridge to remove ALL the wire and I distinctly remember them finding then marking the mine in that instance. The second time, I blew only the "V", and lost / injured the team pretty badly, I may have not "found" the mines the "normal" way, and I can't say for certain that I even saw a mine sign after the explosion. Hmm.. I was aware that HE could set off mines, but I wonder if it can completely clear an action spot and if that is what happens in this instance? Do you have a specific memory of seeing the mine sign after the sympathetic detonation?

I could be mistaken, but didn't the "mid" 105 include GS?

I dunno: that first mine is AP isn't it? My tanks went across it after being marked without any detonations. (shrug). In the past, I've set off AP mines and had them pin an AFV. But, yes, after finding the second mine, in retrospect, there's not any point in marking it. In fact, if someone could just hang a hard right as soon as they get off the bridge then stay off the road, they wouldn't need to even find the second mine. Ultimately, I ended up with 3 immobilized tanks: one to bogging, and two simply due to the cummulative damage to the tracks from running over wire, low hedge, and stone walls.

Womble: "Blast" - THANKS! I never knew this. I'd noticed that you can create a "blast" command across 2 or more action spots, but always deleted it and gave a "quick" command up to the obstacle with a "blast" across it. I generally stand with my finger on the "cancel order" quick order button as soon as the blast occurs because I don't like my engineers running through the breach either. [Edited to include the following:] Nevermind. I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were saying that you could simply set a "blast" waypoint anywhere and the unit would "blast" once they get to the waypoint. Just tried that and it works as I'd thought to begin with. [end edit] Mine "spotting" - agree. It happened in "Le Ham" when my engineers weren't under much direct fire. I don't specifically recall it happening many other times in any other scenario. Passage through mines - yes, even mere "move" orders can still result in casualties through a marked minefield. Inevitably, if there is any fire around, inf will decide they need to change the "move" order to a "quick" order, and end up blowing themselves up. "Slow" is the best way across, but in this scenario, I'd advocate just locating the mines, mark at least the first one (then go around the second).

Barbed wire - run them to an action spot adjacent to the wire then issue a "blast" command into an action spot on the other side of the wire from where the unit is located. Mark mines - once a mine is located (usually by someone being blown up by one, but sometimes by mere observation), the "mark mines" option becomes available for the action spot where the minefield which has been "discovered" is situated. Simply plot the mark mine order for you unit into the action spot with the mine field in it. The "mine warning" sign will turn white when it has been "marked". That still doesn't ensure that a unit won't set one off. Note also that your engineers are probably going to blow themselves up setting while blasting the wire away as the HE will likely set off a sympathetic explosion of the mines. I wouldn't bother with blasting away any more than the front "V" of mines at the bridge, unless you plan on trying to send a bunch of infantry across. [Edited to include the following:] In hindsight, I'd have moved all the units except the FOs and the engineers in the field behind the treeline on the left rear during setup. I ended up doing this after the scenario started, remembering the smashing they took when the AI apparently grew bored killing my troops in the forward positions during my first run.