LongLeftFlank

I always liked Prokofiev's "Battle on the Ice" from Eisentstein's Alexander Nevski myself... (Peregrinus expectavi pedes meos in cymbalis). And "On the Field of the Dead" from the same work is one of most beautiful arias of all time... ("I'll not marry a handsome man") In a different genre, if I'm attacking with my SS kampfgruppe, I favor Rammstein or a similar German industrial track, cranked up over the nebelwerfers.

Great thread here. I've enjoyed reading it. In RL, I work in supply chain management for heavy manufacturing and what you're describing about key logistical breakdowns occurring in the "last mile" rings very true to me. As does the issue of out-of-touch upper management issuing irrelevant, dogmatic and sometimes draconian instructions to line managers who are too busy fighting fires and can't/don't know how to address the problems up the chain.

Sorry to cut in on the escalating flame war here, but I've just finished two QBs vs the AI featuring the much propagandized "animal killer" tactics. In each scenario my 1943 vintage SU-122/152 platoon playing defense in flat farmland with veteran crews got easily slaughtered by 75mm longs... IVG's and StuGs. Every SU was abandoned after at most 3 hits on their frontal armor at over 300-500m range (except for 1 which got killed by arty). They knocked out a few enemy AFV, but definitely got the worst of it. Maybe I'm just projecting old ASL misinformation here, but I always thought the Zvierboys had thicker frontal armor than that. Is there a spall /flaking problem being modeled here or what? I did a search of the boards and nothing showed up. I might try it again with the '44 ASU heavies, but I'm concluding that my animal killers are sheep in wolf's clothing...

That reminds me of an anecdote from the autobiography of General Grigorenko (the Pioneer who blew up Minsk cathedral for Stalin and later became a dissident). In Hungary he ran across a sniper who had a distinct preference for shooting the enemy in the legs rather than killing them outright.

"After consulting with multiple specialists, Michael Jackson decides the Diana Ross look is getting a bit stale..."

(Five minutes prior to photo). Hauptsturmfuhrer Bedivere: "Now if we built this large wooden badger...." Peenemunde, 1945. With the situation now desperate and materiel critically short, the Wunderwaffen program tries everything to deny the Oder crossings to the Russians. Ah, I got a dozen of 'em....

"When I said daylight Panzer movement is a lightning rod for American air attacks, I didn't mean literally!" "Sehr gut, that cable ought to hold well enough. Now Willi, should we first grease the Herr Reichsmarshall before winching him through the driver's hatch, hein?"

Since we're giving free rein to our wish lists, as a kid, I always liked the MacGowan art on the original SL infantry counters showing the little figures advancing like actual combat soldiers (heads ducked, etc.) or lying around on the ground when "Broke 7". This really helped visually confirm that SL was a lot different from previous big unit wargames... that it was all about individual men fightin' and dyin'. No idea what this does to the polygons, but purely from an aesthetic POV, I'd wish that CM2 infantry showed a slightly more realistic combat "body language", at least when executing "advance" or "assault" commands, as opposed to their current "Redcoats at Bunker Hill" stances. This might also help modders with some of the problems they've had with hats and heads. But then again, maybe not. I shall defer to the experts and enjoy whatever comes.

When I forwarded this joke to a friend of mine in France, he sadly replied that he had actually heard all of those lines more or less echoed in the French intellectual press. In this version, Eisenhower knew quite well because of ULTRA that the German army in France was a skeleton force of Polish levies and stomach battalions (And those Hitlerjugend kids were, well, just cute little freckled towheads). Nevertheless, the Yanks deliberately blasted the living hell out of France in stereotypical bigmouth cowboy fashion because (yes, why else did Americans do ANYTHING between the end of the New Deal and the election of Jimmy Carter) because (all together now) they wanted to intimidate the Russians (who BTW are the "true" liberators of France because they had beaten the Wehrmacht unaided by that time in spite of capitalist Anglo-Saxon perfidy). Oh, and it appears that in addition to wholescale flattening of French cities, our GIs raped French women by the thousand both during and after the war. (This also appears to be a major driver of American policy, from the Founding Fathers onward). I don't make 'em up folks, I just read 'em....

This possibly belongs on the political flame wars board down below, but since it's likely to tickle the irony bone of the historically aware regardless of political outlook, and also concerns D-Day, I'll risk slapping it up here for the amusement of the kameraden. However, if it gets summarily moved by the Feldpolizei, I take no offense. Best regards, jac > > (This is what you might hear if today's media reported on D-Day at > > Normandy...) > > > > June 6, 1944. -NORMANDY- Three hundred French civilians were killed and > > thousands more wounded today in the first hours of America's invasion of > > continental Europe. Casualties were heaviest among women and children. > > Most of the French casualties were the result of artillery fire from > > American ships attempting to knock out German fortifications prior to > > the landing of hundreds of thousands of U.S. troops. > > > > Reports from a makeshift hospital in the French town of St. Mere Eglise > > said the carnage was far worse than the French had anticipated and > > reaction against the American invasion was running high. "We are dying > > for no reason," said a Frenchman speaking on condition of anonymity. > > "Americans can't even shoot straight. I never thought I'd say this, but > > life was better under Adolph Hitler." > > > > The invasion also caused severe environmental damage. American troops, > > tanks, trucks and machinery destroyed miles of pristine shoreline and > > thousands of acres of ecologically sensitive wetlands. It was believed > > that the habitat of the spineless French crab was completely wiped out, > > threatening the species with extinction. > > A representative! of Gree npeace said his organization, which had tried to > > stall the invasion for over a year, was appalled at the destruction, but > > not surprised.. "This is just another example of how the military > > destroys the environment without a second thought, " said Christine > > Moanmore. "And it's all about corporate greed." > > Contacted at his Manhattan condo, a member of the French > > government-in-exile who abandoned Paris when Hitler invaded said the > > invasion was based solely on American financial interests. "Everyone > > knows the President Roosevelt has ties to big beer," said Pierre LeWimp. > > "Once the German beer industry is conquered, Roosevelt's beer cronies > > will control the world market and make a fortune." > > > > Administration supporters said America's aggressive actions were based > > in part on the assertions of controversial scientist Albert Einstein, > > who sent a letter to Roosevelt speculating that the Germans were > > developing a secret weapon, a so-called "atomic bomb." Such a weapon > > could produce casualties on a scale never seen before and cause > > environmental damage that could last for thousands of years. Hitler has > > denied having such a weapon and international inspectors were unable to > > locate such weapons even after spending two long weekends in Germany. > > Shortly after the invasion began reports surfaced that German prisoners > > had been abused by Americans. Mistreatment of Jews by Germans at > > so-called "concentration camps" has been rumored but so far, remains > > unproven. > > > > Several thousand Americans died during the first hours of the invasion > > and French officials are concerned that uncollected corpses pose a > > public health risk. "The Americans should have planned for this in > > advance,! " they s aid. "It's their mess and we don't intend to clean it > > up."

Interesting! I recall reading a very engaging and authentic long short story by C.S. Forester of "Hornblower" fame) called "If Hitler Had Invaded England", which posits a German landing at Rye. The tale had some very interesting moments, including the assassination of Rommel by an elderly Boer War pensioner and the Lidice treatment being meted out to an English village in reprisal.

Oh, and I just ordered the book...

Could you give me your "top 10 fave" list of these first hand histories -- ETO ground war (I've got MacDonald and Sajer). Many thanks.

As a lifelong wargamer and junior league WWII grog, I personally love the game as is. I am also pleased to see that BFC is focusing its further development efforts on incremental refinements of the features that make the game unique to begin with. I also get as much enjoyment out of reading the forums as I do out of playing the game.... the game has attracted an amazing global community of extremely bright and sophisticated (if not always in a socially mainstream kind of way) people. However, all that being said, I can also readily imagine how competitive and fluid the games marketplace is right now. While a lot of grog purists are fighting tooth and nail against any move by BFC to broaden its appeal (and increase sales volume) to the despised "twitch" crowd, consider this fact: Nobody will be well served if sales aren't sufficient to keep BFC profitable and its creative independence intact. (Perish the thought!) they will inevitably either fold up or sell out to a large commercial house that will force the game in the populist FPS direction with predictable consequences ("our users don't care if there were no King Tigers in Normandy on D-Day"). So I believe that it's critical for CM2 to add some "sizzle" that will broaden the appeal of the game and draw in the next generation of grogs who don't have the same childhood/family connection to WWII that most of us do. The essential question is how to do that with without either creating a programming nightmare or turning the current game into another FPS? One "out of the box" idea I had was to build in OPTIONAL media -- downloaded just as mods are now, or sold on a separate CD) that plays brief (2 second) animated audio/ video "clips" when trigger events occur, just as game voices are triggered ("Ich gevunden!") in the replay phase. So on occasion when an artillery shell lands on a German squad, you get a brief clip from some doc footage showing landser hunkering down, etc. Of course you'd need to have a big enough library that the clips didn't get too repetitive and annoying (although the voices do that too sometimes). By now a lot of you are reaching for your flamethrowers, but stay with me just a moment. Yes, this might require new technology investments by BFC that I haven't thought about that might make the idea infeasible. On the other hand, it might create some interesting new opportunities for ambitious modders who want to create cool animation clips (although additions to the library would need to be policed -- no Travelocity ads or porno). This feature would add a lot of visual appeal without messing with the game. More important, it could educate and capture the imagination of younger gamers who never grew up on World at War and have no idea what real landser getting pounded by Katyushas looked like . Hard core gamers and processor have-nots could simply disable the feature (as could those of you who would rather die than look at Anzio footage during your Cassino scenario). A brief stock clip of Stukas or Thunderbolts diving in would also be a lot easier to mod than actual animated planes. Sorry about the long post, but I don't speak up that often. Best regards...

I don't have much to add to what has already been expressed here, but it seems to me that the game will support a certain amount of friendly command FOW as it is now. I recall playing the little CMBO D-Day scenario with the 82nd vs. the Falschirmjager in St. Mere Eglise (?) where the units were dropped all over the board. I obeyed the suggestion in the design notes to use only the "1" level view for my units to simulate their disorientation, darkness and lack of cohesion following the drop. It was way confusing but also a lot of fun to play as my guys blundered about at first, getting shot to bits, but then gradually rallied and overran the enemy strongpoints. Similarly, in the absence of a new FOW option, you might consider some self-imposed house rules regarding views (e.g. use only level 1 or 2 views from the "fixed to unit" tab positions unless, say, you are an HQ/spotter/AFV, have special optics, and are on a hill and not under fire). Also shut off the various path/target lines. This might provide some of the information asymetry and fragmentation that you are seeking in terms of a combat command simulation, even if it doesn't address the borg spotting issues.

Thanks for the responses, all. On reflection and further reading, it looks like my personal perception of Soviet heavy SU capabilities and doctrine is distorted by Tamiya model kits and a misleading Soviet propaganda nickname, not to mention the not insignificant fact that the original AH Squad Leader put a bunch of SU-122s and SU-152s into their counter mix at the expense of far more historically common and significant AFVs. (God bless the AH/SL team, but they gave me some wacky ideas about WWII arms and tactics-- and I'm probably not the only one that's true for on this board ).

Just found this additional info on Soviet SP tactics (if you can call them that), with the SU-76: http://www.iremember.ru/tankers/ulanov/ulanov1.html "The same day we were instructed how to engage Tigers. 2 SPs work together. One SP opens fire, and, backing up, serves as bait for a Tiger. When the Tiger has his side exposed, the second SP opens on him at 300m or less. The trick was so simple!..." "...I thanked him and asked, when I can get a command of SP. The answer was quite simple - when some SP commander gets killed." "....When adjusting the gun, I was first using the periscope, which was not too comfortable, as it shook together with the vehicle when we fired our gun. Migalatiev recommended me to forget this piece of iron and look at the targets directly without any optical devices. First my eyes would close from the blast wave coming from the muzzle brake, but later I got used to it and could make adjustments more precisely." Based on this kind of evidence, I'm starting to suspect that the Germans lost far more Tigers to miring and mechanical failure than they ever did to the "animal killers."

The "Zvierboy" (Animal Killer) nickname for the SU-152 is quite evocative (and the Tamiya model I built in childhood, complete with Cyrillic slogan on the side looks like one bad*ss fighting machine) but, propaganda aside, how would the independent ISU/SU brigades actually have operated on the battlefield after Kursk. More to the punkt, how would they have gone about actually stalking and nailing German big katz for a living given their many inferiorities in ROF, optics, muzzle velo, etc? (Keeping in mind the immortal words of OddBall "The only weakness of a Tiger is its ass") 1. Are there any historical info/refs I could use in designing a relevant scenario? 2. What was the SU organization at company and below level? What support units would one expect to see operating with them vs. armor? 3. In spite of the Guards designation, would their crews have been elite relative to other Soviet tank units? 4. Any tank killer aces known on the Soviet side, given the occupational hazards of this work? I've searched through various threads here, which led me to the following link -- http://www.battlefield.ru/isu122_152.html -- which gave me the impression that the 1944+ SU/ISU brigades were basically mobile assault arty that would also occasionally be called upon to knock out some stubborn dug-in panzers, or occasionally to repel a counterattack.... implying that the vaunted "animal killer" role was more incidental than deliberate for these brigades (and that their antitank tactics would be similarly ad hoc and situation-dependent). Anybody have any illum rounds to shed on this (large) target? Many thanks.

Interesting. Now that I think about it, I don't recall ever seeing a photo/newsreel of a Soviet AFV in action without being buttoned up (although others will doubtless have seen more than I). I suspect that this was standard doctrine, but also a practical matter of battlefield survival, regardless of impact on C&C. (And by the way, I kinda liked some of Carrell's stuff when I read it back in high school, even though it'd make you think that the only reason the Germans ever lost was that Hitler was personally nailing his generals' feet to the scorched earth. But then again, Manstein made more or less the same kind of claims in his biog.) "We caught them... and we shot them... using Rule .303!" Breaker Morant

Hell, why not just put the show in Yugoslavia or Congo and have the tribes stalking and slaughtering one another for real for that $US 1 million prize (equal to the GDP of their entire provinces). They're doing it anyway-- why not do it for our amusement? Have helmet and gunsight minicams and require that all action be captured live to count for the prizes. Bonus points for good slaughter footage of innocent civilians. What the hell, lets just bring back gladiatorial combats or tournaments a la outrance for the entertainment of the masses. That's what the mob really wants to see, after all.... and how can that possibly be wrong???? Man is a wolf to man....

AGAIN with the negative waves, baby! There are portrait mods at http://www.combatmission.com/mods/mods.asp I recall a mention of such a campaign a few weeks back. Get thee to the archives. Roof roof roof!

This is very much a nit and rightly should sit low on the CM2 design priorities list, but is there any way that the infantry figures could be drawn -- at least in Sneak mode -- to look like actual soldiers advancing under fire, i.e. hunched over double, heads down? Or perhaps units who are Alerted, etc. might appear like that to provide a quick visual cue on their status. After reading earlier threads, I appreciate the need to minimize use of polygons (the same reason for the Charlie Brown/South Park spherical heads), but it seemed to me that an economical solution might be found to enhance the "heat of battle" look of the game. As a hardcore infantry geek, I'd vote for any aesthetic improvements to be in this direction, rather than rotating idler wheels with flying muck and exhaust fumes. Roger McGowan's exquisitely realistic counter art in Squad Leader added a lot to the tactical feel of that game when contrasted to the sterile map symbols used in previous games. Looking forward to the Linus and Cartman face mods, ummkay? ("Dude, like this Zippo Sherman thing is toetally weak").

The Jerry Goldsmith soundtrack from "Patton" still can't be beat, music-wise. I often listen to it when I play CM. You might also sample Prokofiev's "Alexander Nevsky". (If some of it sounds Star Warsy, that's because John Williams plagiarized Prokofiev's works wholesale for his film scores). Doldinger's "Das Boot" work is also cool, though it's quite nautical (and just why is that I wonder?)

Yeah, and reversing a tank out of a bad situation can't be all that easy to do, especially while BU. You're peering through a letterbox the wrong way!

In the autobiography of Petro Grigorenko, the dissident Russian general, he speaks with a Red Army sniper in Hungary 44 who only shoots people in the legs because he doesn't like to kill... as I recall he had shot several hundred however. Takes a pretty good eye to hit people in the legs. As I noted in an earlier thread re incidents of lone BAR gunners holding off enemy attacks all night in the Bulge and Korea, the pinning effect of a single weapon in a commanding position can be quite powerful in tactical actions. It can totally throw off a timetable. Especially when green troops are involved, or it's April 45 and you don't want to be the last guy in your outfit to "cop one".