Treeburst155

Observed fire can go off-target with rockets. Rockets have no spotting rounds. Hmmmm....maybe rocket strikes are ALWAYS treated as blind strikes as far as accuracy is concerned (except for TRP and prep bombardment). I sense another test coming. The question: What percentage of observed ROCKET strikes are on-target? If the percentage is low, I would suspect rocket attacks are just another blind strike to the program. This means players need not bother getting rocket spotters into LOS because it does absolutely no good to do so. Hmmm.... Treeburst155 out.

This whole study of how arty actually works would probably never have happened if it weren't for the dust in CMAK. We had exactly the same arty behaviour with CMBB, and nobody griped about off-target observed strikes. This is because they rarely happen in CMBB. Once I lose a bunch of guys due to some game behaviour I don't understand, or that appears to contradict the manual, I'm going to test and test and test until I figure out what happened. This is why I don't think manuals should be vague like CM manuals are. Somebody WILL figure out how things really work if they get stung often enough. I think the effect of the new dust on arty strikes was not anticipated, nor was it discovered during testing. Then again, maybe they just liked the idea of dust quite often causing bad arty strikes. As for arty realism in CM, I'm not too worried about that. I just want to know how the stuff works so I don't wipe out my own people. Treeburst155 out.

Carl Puppchen, The "target ahead" theory is a proven way to handle arty. It's called a "Wicky Strike". Redwolf, I prefer to think of arty as "abstracted", rather than "messed up". What's messed up is the manual because it doesn't tell us how arty works. That omission cost me a lot of guys when CMAK first came out. BTW, arty works exactly the same way in CMBB. It's just that the problem rarely comes up in CMBB because there is no dust. Treeburst155 out.

I think BFC really should consider hiring Jasper 2x full time. Treeburst155 out.

Now John), you should know that plans never survive contact with the enemy. Treeburst155 out.

....and as a North Africa/Italy game, the grogs would blast the game as unrealistic if those late war NWE units were in it. Treeburst155 out.

Based on Steve's posts in the various threads over the last few weeks, I'd say our new CM is going to be quite different from what we have now. So much so, that Steve might be trying to prep the old forum members(lots of grogs)for a big shock that will likely cause the old guard to flee from the new game immediately. By preparing them for the shock, he's hoping they will give the game a serious try. In which case, Steve feels they will come to like it. This is all pure speculation of course. I'm just thinking there is a deeper reason for threads like the Grog & Car Designer thread. I think Steve wants the Grogs to come up with the same ideas BFC has already decided will be in the new game. Treeburst155 out.

Thanks for confirming the Wicky Tip, Combined Arms! I missed that post. With Wicky's tip verified I think we should call it the Wicky Strike. "Hmmm.....maybe a Wicky Strike is in order for this slow-ass Corps artillery." I like it.....the Wicky Strike. Treeburst155 out.

Wicky, Nothing you do with CM arty is gamey. The only thing close to gamey you can do with arty is spend hours figuring out how it works, like me. I'd like to point out something in my original post that is somewhat related to the "Wicky Tip". Once that first spotting round goes out, your spotter can catch the next train to Berlin. His strike will still be good. Wicky's spotter starts without LOS and establishes it before the critical moment. You can also be there for the critical moment (with LOS) and leave immediately after. Treeburst155 out.

GreenAsJade, No, because if the critical moment passes without a spotting round firing, the strike is blind. It's too late. After that you are just adjusting a blind strike even if you can see the target point (green line). You're wanting to adjust a blind strike, where Wicky is dealing with a strike that never was declared blind. There's a big difference. Once blind, always blind. Definition of blind: ANY arty strike where the spotter does not have LOS at the critical moment. Characteristics of a blind strike: Almost always off-target, cannot be reliably adjusted (green line or not), can never be made to convert to desireable observed strike behaviour. Here are few critical moment times I tested for: US 155mm....60 seconds US 105mm....30 seconds US 81mm.....30 seconds German 155mm....60 seconds German 105mm....60 seconds German 81mm.....30 seconds Note the US 105 and German 105 are different. Treeburst155 out.

I believe US 105mm spotters have their first spotting round fire at 30 seconds (the exception to the rule), the German 105mm at 60 seconds. Players really should test the particular arty spotter they are using. You can even do it in-game much of the time. There may be many exceptions to the rule. I never did test all the spotters in the game for when their particular critical moment happens. Heck, there may be a critical moment for some spotter that is at 45 seconds. I doubt it; but I never actually determined the critical moment for all spotters, and can't remember for others. Treeburst155 out.

Thinking further on this, if you notice the following bad situation during an orders phase, a green-line adjustment would salvage the strike: 1) First spotting round is likely to fire in the next minute. 2) LOS to target is likely to be blocked (lingering dust, smoke) during critical moment. In this case, a green line adjustment would save the strike (barring new obstructions)....no need to cancel and start from scratch. Treeburst155 out.

OK, I tested it. Once blind, always blind. Green line adjustments of ONGOING blind strikes will move the strike; but rarely to the newly targetted point. Adjusting blind strikes, whether green line or not, is a crapshoot. You never know where the rounds will fall. This means Wicky's strikes are never defined as blind. So, we've learned a couple things: 1) With regard to ACCURACY, LOS need only be established at the critical moment (first spotting round). Isn't delay time affected by targetting blind??? 2) Once blind, always blind....even if you establish LOS and adjust the ONGOING blind strike with a green line. Treeburst155 out. [ February 12, 2005, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

Treeburst155 out. [ February 12, 2005, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

I've been thinking about Wicky's tip. If it works, it means that LOS to the target point is ONLY required at the moment of the first spotting round. This could very well be true. My testing involved blue line targetting only. I really wasn't interested in targetting blind. I never do it. With Wicky's tip, LOS is established at or before the time of the first spotting round. The strike never gets defined as blind. He targets blind; but the decision about the actual strike is not made until the first spotting round is fired. This is THE critical moment! Hence, Wicky's strike is defined as observed, and drops on-target. Trying to green line adjust a strike that is ALREADY defined as blind due to blocked LOS at the critical moment probably would not work; but I can't be sure without specific testing. I'd bet against it working however. Once blind, always blind. The adjustment may work occasionally; but it wouldn't work all the time. So, who's going to test this new thing out?? The answers we need: 1) Does Wicky's tip work? (It probably does) 2) If LOS to the target point of an ONGOING blind strike is established, can the strike be accurately adjusted EVERY time? IOW, can the strike be converted to "observed" status? Treeburst155 out.

Anything involving continuous time should have REAL time (1 minute for 1 minute) as the fastest possible speed. Players could play at 1/4,1/2,3/4 speed, etc..but time should never be allowed to pass faster than real time. I could live with this type of slow click-fest. EDIT: On second thought, 30 seconds time passage in 60 seconds (1/2 speed) would be about as fast I could handle. This would mean all the visuals occur in slow motion. I'd rather get real time movies after an orders pause. Treeburst155 out. [ February 12, 2005, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

Combined Arms, The deadly diameter of "target wide" is about 240 meters, or 120 meters from the target point. This is of course a judgmental thing. I've launched "target wide" arty with friendlies just over 100 meters from ground zero. Sometimes I pay for this, other times not. The closer you fire to your own men, the luckier you have to be as far as outliers are concerned. Inside 100 meters is really asking for trouble with "Target Wide". Treeburst155 out. [ February 12, 2005, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

Great post, Mace! That may be more along the lines of what Steve is looking for. Treeburst155 out.

Hmmmm.....stirring the pot here, Steve did mention something about company level play in CM2 possibly being preferred by those who now prefer larger scenarios. An RTS at the company scale.....hmmmm. They won't attempt it. I'd never buy it if they did....too much mouse twitching. Treeburst155 out.

The problem is file size, not up/down speed. Even expensive broadband packages often have limits on attachment size. My limit is 5MB. I think you can be certain WEGO is in. Steve nipped any question of that right in the bud. There is no better way than WEGO for a company level simulation. Treeburst155 out.

Steve, I REALLY WOULD like to run a battalion level engagement, role playing as the battalion commander. Call it a Battalion Commander Simulator. That describes what I want. Give us an example of the big imaginative ideas you're trying to coax out of the grogs. I think most like CM so much that a few dozen little tweaks to what they already have is all that people can really get a grip on. We need an example of something big. Treeburst155 out.

I enjoy playing CM against myself more than playing the game against the AI. I don't do it often because I usually have more PBEMs than I can handle; but playing against myself is way more fun than playing the AI. In my board gaming days in the '70s I usually found an opponent to play; but solitaire play was not uncommon for me. Thankfully, there was no AI involved in my '70s wargaming experience. Treeburst155 out.

Michael, ....so what you are saying is, you wouldn't play the game at all if it doesn't have PBEM; but you would play WITH the game if it had the features you mention above. Interesting..... I don't think BFC should worry about filesize anyway. Check this out: http://s3.yousendit.com/ Treeburst155 out.

Hehe....large file sizes are not a big issue. Check this out: http://s3.yousendit.com/ Treeburst155 out.

Well,well,well....ASSUMING PBEM ends up to be not possible we have several choices remaining. Let's take a look at them. 1) Solitaire - I would need a vast improvement in the AI for me to play this way. If this improvement was good enough, I wouldn't care if it alone was the cause for PBEM becoming impossible. 2) TCP/IP - finding the block of time for this would be difficult for me. I would probably play about 25 games per year. Hmmm....that's probably all I do right now with PBEM. I'd have to find opponents that allowed generous time limits however. I don't like wear and tear on my mouse. This means games would have to span a weekend, not just a couple hours. 3) Team play - I don't think I will find much use for this style of play. I might manage 6-8 games per year. Coordinating a meeting time with several other people, and expecting them to "show up" on time with a decent, working computer and internet connection is tough to do. I suspect technical issues may take up a great deal of playing time with this style of play. I'll definitely buy the first CMX2, even if there is no PBEM. However, I would not buy future installments if single player AI is less than VERY good. Treeburst155 out.