Treeburst155

Combined Arms, I have changed my mind about using halfsquads due to support from the highest levels regarding my initial position on the tactic (gamey). See my sig. I MAY however fight fire with fire, should I run into the tactic in the finals. If I get as far as the finals, my will to win may overcome my dislike for gamey play. That is, if I am up against that sort of thing. I will never be the first to use questionable tactics in a game. Treeburst155 out. Treeburst155 out.

Yes, the Invitational was before the first ROW; but I try not to think about that one. It was...less than successful. Treeburst155 out.

Redwolf, I did not look at global morale. There were VERY few casualties after one minute of firing. I spot checked for losses throughout the test. Treeburst155 out.

Are you suggesting that CM is a game? Like chess? CM is....um...reality, isn't it? Treeburst155 out.

Just keep on thinkin', Steve. It's gonna be good! Oh, I'll find stuff to whine about; but I'm not happy if I don't have gripes. Treeburst155 out.

I'm fairly certain the first ROW was before Ted Quincy's "Not-So-Super-Bowl". I remember the NSSB well. I followed the tourney threads. The participants seemed to be having a great deal of fun, and everybody got to play, even if they were reserves. It was a quite well thought out format. Treeburst155 out.

What if the program checked firing units for "first time fired" status? If the answer is yes, and the target is a jeep, crew, AT team or some other innapropriate unit for scouting, the value of the target quintuples for several minutes. Treeburst155 out.

I wanna play the top dogs with their split squads! I want to observe the master CM competitors first hand. Besides that, I'm a glutton for punishment. If I can't play the big boys, give me Grog Dorosh. Him I can beat. Treeburst155 out.

Now now Walpurgis, don't get upset. We just have different opinions on how the game should be approached and enjoyed. We sit down to the game with different mindsets. Enjoy your halfsquad version of CM, and I'll enjoy my whole squad version. Live and Let Live. Peace...Shalom...etc.. Treeburst155 out.

Have you Halfsquad Herders read the last three posts to the original Hordes thread? Halfsquad Herding has been disgraced finally and completely. It's downright gamey....smart, but gamey. I'll stay with my full squads. It was a fun debate. I TRULY enjoyed it. Treeburst155 out. [ February 01, 2005, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

Don't you worry, Steve. I will defend designer intent tirelessly for the next year. My whole squads and I will fight the halfsquad hordes valiantly to the last man! We will never give up. We may never win; but we will die honorably with full knowledge that we have not committed the war crime of GAMEYness. All my men and I needed was encouragement from the top to pursue the righteous and honorable path. Now I must change my sig to better reflect the high road I have chosen for my fighting men. This debate is over for me, because to my mind, I have won. Get thee hence, ye Herders Of Halfsquad Hordes!! Your gamey play will rot your very soul. Repent while there is still time. Treeburst155 out. [ February 01, 2005, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

Actually, the morale difference is only 1.15 levels. This may not be very much at all when actual gameplay is considered. Recovery time is something this test does not address. That could be an important aspect of the comparison. Treeburst155 out. [ February 01, 2005, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

Halfsquad Morale Test Results 100 REGULAR halfsquads, in command (no bonus), ambushed in the open by Crack HMGs at 400 meters, no place to run, condition after one minute: OK - none Alerted - none Cautious - none Shaken - 6 Pinned - 31 Panic - 30 Broken - 17 Routed - 16 Assigning points to each category (OK=1, Routed=8) the average morale state of these 100 halfsquads was 6.06, or just over the "panic" threshhold but far from "broken". The same test with whole squads: OK - 2 Alerted - 6 Cautious - 8 Shaken - 6 Pinned - 49 Panic - 21 Broken - 6 Routed - 2 Average morale state, 4.91, or not quite "pinned", but VERY "shaken". With REGULAR squads and halfsquads there is a significant difference in brittleness under fire. Based on Walpurgis Nacht's comments, I suspect the difference would be reduced significantly with Vets, Crackers, Elites. Note: the margin of error may be too large with only 100 tests. It really should be run 500 times IMO. Treeburst155 out.

I would run the whole squad tests completely separate from the halfsquad tests. As for global morale within the test, a one minute run would not be affected by reductions in global morale. Casualties are not that high anyway. Each test is a one minute run, restarting the scenario for each test. Walpurgis Nacht has obviously studied the halfsquad tactic extensively. Basically, he's saying CM is a halfsquad-centric game, and has been for some time. It's time for old guys like me to get with the times and start splitting squads wholesale. Treeburst155 out

OK, I've got a great morale test ready, I think. 10 isolated lanes with one 20 meter island in each lane. One halfsquad on each island, in command (HQ is in the trees bordering lanes). All variables removed (leader bonuses, experience levels, etc.). One Crack MG 42 in a foxhole in each lane, 400 meters from the halfsquad islands. On turn one orders phase, the Russians cannot see the MGs; but the MGs can see the Russians. I target the Ruskies manually. My trial run shows a wide range of morale states after one minute (shaken to broken). This means no overkill, hopefully. If I run this test MANY times, keeping a tally of morale states, then run the whole thing again with whole squads, I'd get some good morale info IMO. It will take a long time; but I'll probably do it out of curiosity. Treeburst155 out.

Morale test idea: Set up 20 firing lanes divided by woods. Have one halfsquad in each lane walk across the lane while an MG42 several hundred meters away in each lane opens fire. At the end of the minute, record the condition of each halfsquad. Run the test 5 times for 100 tests. Then do the same for whole squads. Compare. Adjust MG range, experience, etc.. so that a few halfsquads don't even pin in trial tests. Then you know you haven't overkilled the situation. Morale is a tough thing to test for. Treeburst155 out.

Great info, Redwolf! This supports the "dilution of support weapon" argument Glider has been putting forth, and the new focus of my attention too. This makes me want to call squad-splitting gamey again. The way CM applies firepower to the enemy is being manipulated. But, because I will be splitting squads now, it CAN'T be gamey to do so. Treeburst155 out.

Hehe.....yeah, when the effectiveness of a tactic is vigorously denied, you know it works. I'll be splitting squads. Let's face it. It's a fireteam based game now. That is, if you like to win. Treeburst155 out.

I think the whole split squad issue could be resolved by a greater morale and firepower hit. The game has changed from squad based to fireteam based, probably due at least partially to the changes since CMBO, mentioned above. Glider's concerns regarding support weapons vs split squads make sense. Even if spreading (splitting)squads to make suppression more difficult is realistic, the fact remains that support weapons are now significantly less powerful. It may be realistic to split squads; but is the corresponding reduction in support weapon potency realistic? Treeburst155 out.

LOL! Yep, that's what it boils down to. The thing is, the designers didn't really intend for large scale use of halfsquads to pay off; but it does....in some situations. Split your squads in large clumps of trees where infantry could be waiting for you, and support weapons can't see to help. Other than that, you'll probably be alright against halfsquad hordes. Treeburst155 out.

The time problem could be eliminated easily. I don't think CM needs time limits at all, unless a designer wants time to be a factor. We have auto-ceasefire when morale gets below 25%, we have auto-ceasefire when ammo gets too low, and we have auto-surrender. For the board edge problem, it might be fun if heavy arty was triggered when and if a player ordered too much movement near map edges. When the total distance moved within 100 meters of a map edge reaches, say 300 meters, a half dozen VT 155mm shells come down...on target. The trigger point should be unpredictable, sometimes 300 meters total distance travelled by all troops, sometimes more, sometimes less. Treeburst155 out.

I think you can count on a significant improvement in this area with CM2. From what I've read, it appears they have declared war on these spotting issues. Treeburst155 out.

They should be brittle enough to make up for the fact that the whole squad can't direct one single round in the direction of the flanking halfsquad. IOW, the flanking element should pin at the sight of the enemy. Treeburst155 out.

All split squads are better than all solid squads all the time every time when all else is equal I think the halfsquad advantage is only severe in large wooded areas, where armor, arty, HMGs, and mortars cannot easily take part in the firefight, if at all. Still, based on general CM experience, I would imagine a large number of halfsquads could make for a tougher game in general, as Glider has said. I've never had to face hordes of halfsquads in a fairly open situation. Treeburst155 out.

Good job, Ace Pilot! Morale is a very difficult thing to test for. I wouldn't call your test conclusive; but it does indicate that some morale penalty for the halfsquads is probably in effect. I'd like to see the halfsquads twice as brittle; but we'll have to wait for the new CM for the fix. Thanks again for running that test! Treeburst155 out.