Snake Eyes

"Our blood, his guts." ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

Don't forget the modders, like Tiger. ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

Trotter and the rest of us can use a little sensitivity training from time to time. It's one thing to compare a vet's notes to a simulation/game to see if the game is somewhat accurate. It's quite another matter to play a game and say, "If only you had done this or that, you would have won." There are still many WWII vets alive and to criticize their efforts, even in a relatively minor way as Trotter did, can be thoughtless and insensitive. These vets suffered the hardships of war firsthand. They lost close friends and endured things that most of us have only read about. It would be wise to keep this in mind when critiquing a battle while some of the participants are still around. However, alternative history is one of the reasons most wargamers recreate battles. I would venture to say that all of us have, at one time or another, done the same thing that Trotter did. The only difference being he has a public platform from which to voice his conclusions. In such a case it is important to remember that there are folks out there that may be offended by an amateur's opinion. And the fact that this opinion is based on a game tends to trivialize a veteran's efforts. I am sure that none of us want to offend veterans of wars past. We must keep that in mind when we offer our opinions and alternate strategies. A clear disclaimer up front should suffice. Trotter did the right thing by publishing the letter. It made me think a little about what I've said in the past and how I might consider my words in the future. ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

I want to commend the BTS team for all your hard work. Thanks for listening to your customers and your willingness to make sensible modifications to the game. I wish you all HAPPY HOLIDAYS, and hey....TAKE SOME TIME OFF!!! ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

OMG, I'm going blind! ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chupacabra: ...American infantry with British tanks... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Nijmegen? ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman: But that's ok. That is how things get better.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I like your recommendation. Infantry needs more flexibility in order to simulate real battlefield tactics. It surely will be more work for the programming team, but it would be a big improvement to the game. CMBO is a great start, but it is still pretty basic. ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

I'm currently playing a PBEM game in which two PzIVh and two PzIVj ravaged eight Shermans, including a couple Firefly's. The range was just under 1000m, the German crews are vets and the Sherman crews are reg. The field is littered with seven Allied hulks, five of which are brewed. German losses, one PzIVh. It was basically a stand and shoot confrontation. Would the PzIV's perform as well in a repeat performance, who knows? But that's what makes CM so much fun. I think BTS has the PzIV about right. ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

It's an American squad. ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop [This message has been edited by Snake Eyes (edited 12-19-2000).]

Kampfgruppe for my Atari 8-bit system. After more than twenty years of board games I thought I had died and gone to heaven! ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

It's only available online. ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

Being an 'ol farm boy in my youth I was given a Daisy BB gun when I was 8-9 years old. My father taught me how to respect firearms and then set me loose to terrorize the local bird population. At age 10-11 I started using a .410 and graduated to a 20-gauge around age 12. I never fooled around with a loaded or unloaded gun and treated them with the utmost respect. However, one day I put a .22 slug through a window from an 'unloaded' gun. I had checked it several times and I was sure it was not loaded. Also, the older brother of a school friend had gotten a BB pistol and didn't have any sense of gun safety. The dufuss fired at me and hit me in the face, just missing my eye. These experiences led me to belive that: 1) accidents happen 2) some (maybe all) kids suffer from some form of temporary brain damage 3) kids with guns are dangerous My sons learned how to shoot during Boy Scout summer camp in a well supervised program. They also learned to respect firearms of all types. However, I felt it too dangerous to keep guns in the house. The decision to give your child a gun, any type of gun, is a very serious one. Training and supervision are very important. Keep in mind that the respect with which they treat a BB gun will be the same respect they will use for any gun. As a parent it will be your duty to see that they understand their responsibilities in regard to gun safety AT ALL TIMES AND IN ALL PLACES. ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop [This message has been edited by Snake Eyes (edited 12-18-2000).]

It's too early for me to tell in a current PBEM game, but I have an on-board 150mm artillery using direct fire on a Sherman. It has one C round and has not used it yet. However, one HE round hit the Sherman on the hull to no effect. I was surprised to see the Sherman shrug it off so easily. No stun, no shock and from the Sherman's ROF, no crew casualties. Does anyone know if CM correctly models large caliber HE hits on vehicles? It should be more than just a measure penetration. The concussion from a large HE round should be enough to stun and/or kill the crew, let alone the possibility of knocking the turret off. ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

I may not be the oldest geezer on the Forum but I'm a geezer for sure at 54. Titles such as Grognard, gray-beard, and hard-core are worn with pride. I started playing wargames in 1959 when I received Tactics II as a birthday gift. I've had the experience of playing at real war during the Viet Nam era, and from my perspective CM is a lot more fun. Thus my sig... ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop [This message has been edited by Snake Eyes (edited 12-18-2000).]

Well, now that the 1.1beta allows a higher likelihood of T round usage it's time to balance that effect with less availability. From what I've read most tank units didn't receive tungsten (a.k.a. hypershot) until very late in the war. Tank Destroyers were given priority, but they too never felt there was enough. Maybe someone can provide more factual data on T availability? Nonetheless, I would like to see the cost of T rounds to be very high; somewhere around 50 points each for tanks and 25 points each for TD's. This would make it a real tough choice in deciding whether to go with a few T rounds or another AFV. ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop [This message has been edited by Snake Eyes (edited 12-18-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tss: Snake Eyes wrote: As an example, the Me262 could have been available in late 1943 or early 1944 had Hitler not insisted that it be a bomber. By what I've read from various sources, the bomber thing didn't really affect Me262 development that much. The main problem was engine reliability and that would affect both bomber and fighter variants equally. The true delay for the bomber-fiasco was a couple of weeks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thanks for the info, I stand corrected. Do you have a reference? I would like to look into this more. ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

Major modern wars, beginning with the American Civil War, are really economic battles. The side that can out-produce and out-last the other will win. The Soviet Union took a terrible beating, but yet recovered enough to produce 58,000+ T34's. Their methods and tactics were not elegant, but they worked. The American M4 was outclassed by the German heavies and one German heavy may have been equivalent to five Shermans. Nonetheless, as an unnamed German commander is reputed to have said, "There were always six." In our little CM world we can get very myopic and only see the immediate threat. But as Slapdragon has made very clear and I alluded to earlier, you have to take a step back and look at the entire picture. WWII was fought over thousands of CM sized maps. ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Skott Karlsson: I remember reading one article that if in 1943 Hitler would have increased tank and plane production like his minister wanted to they may not have lost the war in the east. Of course its easy to sit back years later and say they should have done this and they should have done that. So many mistakes and bluinders were made on all sides.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ah, it is true that 20/20 hindsight is perfect, but it's just as well that Hitler made the blunders that he did. As an example, the Me262 could have been available in late 1943 or early 1944 had Hitler not insisted that it be a bomber. What a shock that would have been to the Allies as they prepared for D-Day! Also, Hitler's fixation with uber weapons such as the King Tiger helped in the overall defeat of Germany. A more practical solution to Germany's late war woes would have been more Hetzers and no KT's. Not as elegant a design, but more practical in the long run. ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SenorBeef: Was that 122 an artillery gun (like the sherman 75) or an AT gun mounted on a tank? I think I recall reading that a 88/71 could outpenetrate it by a large margin, but I'm not sure. I remember it was hindered by a bad ballistic cap due to the 2 piece shell, and that it wasn't the greatest of tank killers...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> IIRC, the Russian 122/L48 D-25T was a converted artillery gun based on the A-19 design. The breech was modified, which allowed a higher rate of fire. The 122 could penetrate 143mm of armor at 1000m, 0 angle. The 88/L71 was arguably the best 'tank killer' of WWII. It could penetrate 188mm of armor at 1000m, 0 angle. However, and this should not be overlooked, the HE round of the 122 was significantly larger than the 88. The 122 weighed 25kg compared to the 88's 10kg. Also, when comparing AFV's it's often a mistaken belief that all heavy tanks fall under the same grouping. Actually JSII, Panther, Tiger I, and Pershing are comparable. King Tiger should be classified as a super heavy. ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pedro: As for the JS series particularly the JS II. I would hate to go to a tank fight with only 10 AP rounds per tank.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The basic load for a JSII called for 10 AP and 18 HE rounds. I would expect the ratio to be altered if the crew was expecting to engage enemy armor. In any case, a turret hit by a 122mm HE round could knock the turret completely off and/or kill the crew. Every tank has its strengths and its weaknesses. One of the challenges of CM and any wargame is to use your side's strengths against your opponents weaknesses. The one who does that the best will usually win. ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ckoharik: Anyone have the other pertinent specs on the JSII? Armor thickness, speed, etc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Check out http://history.vif2.ru/ ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

The Panther was the best all-round tank of WWII, IMHO. However, I prefer the JSIIm. Reasonable speed, good armor and a whopping 122mm main gun. Even a near miss could take out an enemy AFV. Infantry positions and bunkers can easily be smashed with such a large caliber weapon. It carried only 28 rounds (10 AP, 18 HE basic load) and had a slow rate of fire due to its two part ammo. However, I think it will be a real killer in CM2. ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop [This message has been edited by Snake Eyes (edited 12-12-2000).]

Sorry guys, just a little sarcasm. ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by machineman: As far as Desert Storm goes I think it would be fair to say the US was driving the Kingtiger (Abrams) this time, with the Iraqis trying to make do with the Sherman (T-72).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Had the US been using King Tigers in Desert Storm the 'Hail Mary' play would have turned into a broken play as they ran out of fuel and broke down after 100 miles of use. ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

Also, ASL lets the player orchestrate his attacks, observing the results of one before committing to another. CM forces the player to commit without knowing the outcome first. Much more realistic. ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop