Renaud

One thing to keep in mind is that the much harder/thicker steel walls of tube arty projectiles create heavy steel shrapnel which can tear through decent armor and destroy running gear. If you've ever found some 155mm shrapnel you know what i'm talking about: big & heavy pieces of scalloped steel buzz-saw with razor sharp edges sometimes 3-6 inches long. The various WWII rockets were mostly explosive power right? So good effect versus unprotected targets or buildings, but probably not much effect to armored vehicles except from a near-contacting burst.

Battle #4 is posted at proving grounds. 22nd PZD #4: Brigade_Groddek

Yea, I used it for the first time to see the topography around Saraymin, Crimea for the 4th scenario in my 22nd Panzer Division series.

A new poster guy tries to relate some personal WWII trivia and get's told to 'F*CK off nazi punk' by a long-time member. I too feel extreme emotion when confronted with nazi apologists and holocaust deniers. But why punish some poor new guy who's just trying to relate some trivia. I didn't spot any 'lionizing'. Humanizing maybe, hardly lionizing.

I wouldn't have ordered the mad rush that seems to be described in the Soviet Official History of the battle: "The tanks of the Fifth Guards Tank Army cut into the Nazi deployment at full speed. This attack was so fast that the enemy did not have time to meet it, and the leading ranks of the Soviet tanks passed right through the enemy's entire first echelon..." I always assumed this was purely fictional propoganda, as who in their right mind would order this nonsense. It goes on like this, including heroic flaming suicide KV's ramming tigers, described in very purple prose. Ummm Yea. According to what i've read, each side lost more than 300 tanks. Do I understand correctly that the original poster claims only a handful of german tanks were lost at Prokhorovka, or something of the sort? Also, can you guys recommend any excellent CM scenarios on Prokhorovka? There's one on the CD I think...it's pretty generic. Huge random-looking map of high hills, tons of tanks, artificial as heck, not resembling the actual terrain in the least...

Battle #3 is at the proving grounds: TrappenJagd

Battle #3 is posted at proving grounds. 22nd PZD #3: TrappenJagd

The 'assault guns' might be priests or more likely the newer 105mm cannon-armed shermans. There were also some US gun-carriages that might quality. Unfortunately 155mm isn't modeled on-board, only as offboard arty battery. So if they used those big guns for direct fire in that battle, you will have to simulate with direct fire from 105mm cannons (the ones in 'support' units). You see that difference a lot in CM...same diameter gun is called cannon in one battery, howitzer in another battery. Sometimes even 'gun-howitzer'. The difference is mainly in the type of gun and how they fired. Cannons had longer barrels and fired on a shallow trajectory, usually with longer range. Howitzers fired high-trajectory plunging fire, shorter range but good at landing right on top of things. Whether this diffence is modeled in CM I never have bothered to check. I haven't seen the difference anyway. Long Toms had super-long barrels, for really long range fire. Like the german 170mm Ke guns.

Great primer on artillery! The only thing I spotted that has changed is that artillery FO's received as reinforcements can indeed use TRPs. Quoted from above post by WineCape:

IMO, the best way to marginalize edge-hugging in CMBB scenario design was to 1) make the maps big enough relative to the objective areas that moving along the edge takes you far from the action; 2) set the scenario time limit so that there is not enough time to hug the edge and still make your objectives; 3) Make the edge(s) of the map conform to a more-or-less impassable terrain border which constitutes a natural non-gamey 'edge', such as dense woods, escarpment, wide river, seacoast, swamp, ravine, soft sand, mud, urban area, mountain, etc. You could do the same in CMC Op map design. In many historical situations I can imagine recreating in CMC, there would in fact be some sort of natural edge, Typically wide rivers or forest impassable to vehicles. In the Kerch Peninsula, Crimea 41/42, the Parpach front was only 16-18 KM wide between the Black Sea and Sea of Azov. Not too large to simulate coast-to-coast in CMC. Other than the assault boat landings by both sides, pretty much a hard 'edge'. YES, those gamey bastards did hug the coastline. I guess what i'm suggesting is solve the problem by borrowing from reality, not slapping a gamey patch on it (fighting fire with fire, so to speak). edit: hey that's an oxymoron [ November 02, 2005, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: Renaud ]

I think Russophile is referring to airsupport in a tactical CMBB-size battle, as in called by a forward air controller or other luftwaffe liaison officer in direct support of the immediate tactical objectives of a regiment, battalion, whatever. Or just wandering the battlefield looking for individual vehicles, troop columns, batteries. As you say, they did use the medium bombers like the Dornier, JU88 and HE111 for planned strikes on railyards, troop concentrations, ships, fortifications, cities, etc.

Ha, I wouldn't be so sure. You never know what people will attempt. I've seen CM maps so huge and unbelievably detailed, you would never guess someone would spend 200 hours doing that but they do. I predict this will reach new highs with the advent of CMC. As far as the impossible unit densities, I totally agree. No CMBB games involving 200+ tanks and 8000+ troops in a 2x2 tile will be happening. But I guess you could use the auto-resolve feature to take care of those giant battles, while the human players controlled smaller units in the great scheme of things, such as units involved in flanking or other actions around the periphery of the urban areas.

A map of the actual CM battlefield could be a real help in large/complex scenarios...hmm. I would probably screenshot all of it with elevation off, then hand draw topo-style elevations lines and other intelligence and scan it back in. All you would need is MS-Paint for the computer part of the work. I like including extra stuff in scenarios as well, like little maps I draw or scan, unit histories, pics of some units in the battle, etc. Just hoping to give the scenarios some flavor and you-are-there feeling. Just a little teaser...a link to a bonus map i am working on for battle #3 in the 22nd PZD series: TrappenJagd It is based on a map published by the Russian military topography corps in Moscow, 1920. EDIT: LT, hats off to you guys. Nice! Puts my little efforts to shame. The command map example at Sie Kommen is fantastic. [ November 02, 2005, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: Renaud ]

I am pretty certain that the CMBB-scale units will be no more customizable than they are now. You will have your custom CMC ME name, but CMBB will be the same. Hardly a big concern, at least for me.

I think true, except that you would move your lone ME on the Op map as well as conduct it's CMBB battles. The CMC AI would move the ai-controlled units on the Op map, but you would have to auto-resolve the battles between those ME's, or fight the CMBB battles yourself as there's no CMBB ai-vs-ai option.

Hunter, couldn't agree more on the idea of fluid campaigns with few troops spread over wide areas being more interesting. As in the fluid situations after the set-piece breakthrough. Pursuits, exploitations, alarmenheiten, fire brigades, etc. The thought of playing a 'realistic' divisional size russian or german breakthrough attack is not that appealing to me, as your ME's will likely be reinforced battalion size units with lots of arty and so forth. Then again if you are attacking with 10:1 odds, which would be the norm I think, it would be a case of just 'going through the motions'. In that case you might as well auto-resolve. But then you don't get to see your 24 FO's call in 3000 rockets into a 2x2km map, lol. Maybe it would work if you had enough players, dunno. It's hard for me to visualize.

The Rata, or 'Sewing Machine'. According to what i've read, they had no great effect, hardly even denying sleep.

I bet...the limit is the limit we already have in CMBB. Which is huge, not sure how big. Think 'To the Volga'.

Battle #2 is posted at proving grounds. "22nd PZD-2 - Korpetsch" This is a rather long/large scenario by my standards, 28+ turns. Lots of time pressure even so. The next scenarios coming up are quite different from these first two. I sure hope Charles fixes that damn fortification bug when CMC executable come sout, it's annoying. I know I know, not gonna happen but I can hope can't I? Hey George I need to find time to try out your Railyard scenario...looks tempting.

Wow Patboy, I like that mod. I have a soft spot for that puny little Pz38. The crews really loved that vehicle (until they faced T34, etc.). It could travel 2-3 farther than a german AFV before needing routine maintenance. The engine and transmission were superbly engineered. Battle #2 in the series should be at proving grounds later today, plus 1.2beta of this one. I'm partial to smaller or at least quick-playing scenarios as well. Battle #2 is the largest i'll be likely to do for this series.

All true, unless you have no guns. Then you have to get creative with the infantry assault, engineers, FT's, smoke, etc. (wish engineers had smoke grenades, at least) Fortifications are an afterthought in CM. That being the case, they work OK. At least we have something. More than CMx2, i'd like to see all the CMx1's brought up to CMAK spec and re-released, along with reworked and expanded fortifications systems including communications trenches, real bunkers (ie you can have units enter/exit them as they are underground), fortified buildings, and of course the existing bunkers, which behave like pillboxes rather than concealed bunkers or fieldworks. While i'm dreaming, think i'll buy a lotto ticket. edit: Oh, one way to make a bunker, even wooden one, hard as heck to kill with direct fire cannon, is to face it where enemy guns can't get LOS on the front. Can be a rare situation. I did this in ROWV Across Moltke Bridge as russians, vs Steve McClaire (damn good player btw, he won minor victor as germans)...put my concrete bunker on my side of bridge, facing at right angles. Took forever to get a tank in position to hit the front, it withstood all hits from side. Meanwhile I mowed down the infantry. [ October 28, 2005, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: Renaud ]

Thanks guys! Really needs human vs. human. In the next scenario you get to ride in the command track of Oberst Koppenburg as he takes the rest of Regiment 204 in. Or toss a molotov in his track, if you swing that way. Any admins around? Could a nice admin move us to the scenario forum?

I am creating a series of CMBB scenarios covering the combat history of the 22nd Panzer Division. This series is aimed at those interested in historical accuracy as well as play value. The first one is ready for testing, let me know what you think. It's actually a rather fast-playing game despite the 'Large' designation. 22nd PZD - Lost in the Fog

The first scenario is ready, at The Proving Grounds: 22nd PZD - Lost in the Fog This is the first in the series. Enjoy!

Actually, I think it's agreed that it's real. The event is referenced in the official daily reports of 11th Panzer Division and quoted in Jentz Panzer Truppen Vol I. However it's been enlarged upon by various imaginative authors.