Renaud

aka the neutral steer! Only a problem in deep soft sand or other stuff that can push the roadwheels away from the centerlink, thus allowing the track to slide away and eventually come off the sprocket if you keep doing it. ha, the m1's problem in a city is fitting in the streets, not banging the gun on something, and not smashing a building or crushing a car or pedestrians. Or torching stuff with the exhaust.

Try this site: http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/ It's pretty amazing, if hard to follow. It's run by a russian guy who has spent years translating russian army figures, especially wwII stuff never seen in english before. Maps too.

Jeeze, where ya been?? I must have played a thousand games since then. I'm making a series of scenarios featuring the 22nd Panzer Division. The first one should be done this weekend. It's a thoroughly researched historical series. How would you like to test it out for me?

The first of my 22nd PZD scenarios should be at the proving grounds in a few days. I will announce in the scenario forum. Until then, here are a few fun pictures for you! Pz.Kpfw.IV Ausf.P1 of 22nd Panzer Division of Wehrmacht. The turret has additional camouflage made of mud. Tactical number "614". Captured by Soviet troops in the end of March 1942* * 2/204 battalion had a few tanks get stuck trying to cross an antitank ditch around 0800 hours during the March 20 attack - this is probably one of them. Pz.Kpfw.IVAusf.F1, which belonged to the 22nd Panzer Division Wehrmach, on the maintenance and repairs base of the Crimean Front. April 1942. Pz. Kpfw. KV-I® mit 7.5cm KwK.Captured Soviet KV-1 rearmed with 75mm KwK 40 L/43 gun and mounted with PzKpfw IV commander's cupola. The 204th Tank Regiment/22nd Panzer Division, 1943, Belgorod region. Regenberger, Dr. Werner: Scheiben. Horst: Captured tanks under german flag. Russian battle tanks.Shiffer Military ------- I wonder if that thing ever saw combat...

Yea jtcm, I want to make a scenario pack covering 4-6 22nd PD battles. That's what all this research is for! Glider, I found some claims that the panzer divisions were reorganized and renumbered after barbarossa and that many existing panzer division numbers were doubled. Which means the 11th in 1940 would become the 22nd in 1941! Weird stuff, but maybe just maybe the 11th became the cadre for the 22nd in sept 40 france. It's important in all this not to get confused with the 22nd air-landing division, which also served in Crimea under Manstein, and later was dropped onto Crete. Zalgiris, I'm familiar with Mettelman. As only a private, his knowledge is pretty vague but very interesting. I found a detailed account of the "Groddeck" brigade which was decisive in the May 42 Kerch Operation. It was composed of 2 Romanian motorised cavalry regiments with attached german units, one of which was the 560th independent Tank Hunter Company. This may well be Mettelmans Marder-equipped unit! Based on the July 1 Panzer strength reports, I think I can safely assume that part of the '42 March-May replacements included 12 PzIII 50L60 units, and a trainload of Czech Pz38t's as well, and that the 12 PzIII's would have been involved the May 7 Kerch Op. By Nov 42 they probably lost most or all of them, as you say. The 22nd Panzer's history is starting to gel, just a bit more research...thanks for the help. As an aside, I think the Pz38t is an 'OK' tank until mid 42 when T34's and KV's started reaching the russian tank brigades in meaningful numbers.

I don't think post-CMBB engagement deployment on the CMC Op map will be determined by the traditional CMBB AAR victory points. Basically, if at the end of a CMBB engagement, you have forces controlling one or more of the 4 flags on the 2x2 Op map, you get to control those 1x1 sections. Whether this is a 'victory' or not is no longer cut and dried...both sides could well be happy with the result and think they 'won'. Much more realistic than points! At the end of the CMC campaign, a kind of CMC-points, possibly derived from cumulative CMBB points behind-the-scenes, may be used to determine overall victory.

Steiner, nice summary, probably close to reality. I think/hope that step 13 would have a 3rd option: have the AI play the CMBB battle even though the ME-x is controlled by a human player. This would allow substitution in case the human player was busy elsewhere, on vacation, etc. Of course, at least one player in every CMBB battle has to be human...

Seems that only 41 tanks were operational by the time the 22nd was involved in the Nov 1942 Chir river battles. Another very weird thing - according to this, the division suffered from mouse-attack. Those secret soviet super-mice! I found this event referenced in many places, turns out the soviets even found out about it later and used it for propoganda purposes. Too weird. Almost forgot the weirdest thing: http://216.109.125.130/search/cache?_adv_prop=web&ei=UTF-8&vp=22nd+Panzer+Division&vp_vt=any&vd=all&vst=0&vf=all&vm=i&fl=0&n=10&u=www.zwire.com/news/newsstory.cfm%3Fnewsid%3D144865 38%26title%3D%253Cp%253ELocal+man+shares+memories+on+60th+anniversary+of+V-E+Day%26BRD%3D1197%26PAG%3D461%26CATNAME%3DTop+Stories%26CATEGORYID%3D410&w=%2222nd+panzer+division%22&d= eV1KO2FULhwD&icp=1&.intl=us Ray Zager, a veteran of the 71st US division, claims that his battalion accepted the surrender of the 22nd panzer division a few miles west of Vienna on May 8, 1945 (VE Day!). I figure this has to be some sort of mistake, but it's weird. [ October 21, 2005, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: Renaud ]

Ha, Glider. You posted just before me!

I've been doing a lot of research on the web (I don't own many of the prime reference books!) and discovered a lot of interesting information. Seems that there is some disagreement about when the division was formed. One secondary source even states the 22nd was involved in the April 1940 occupation of Yugoslavia (attacking the villages of Nis and Natalinci, they encountered heavy 75mm field gun fire). I think this is probably a mistake and the 22nd really was formed in the Paris region post-barbarossa. It gets even weirder... Turns out the core of the division escaped annihilation in Nov 1942, making it across the Chir river thanks to the 1st Romanian AD, according to some sources. Others say the 22nd saved the 1st...clashing opinions here. In any case they were sent to the Belgorod area where they received some very unique armor, including captured KV-1 tanks modified in their field shops with Pz-IV cupolas and KwK 75L43 guns! They also received seven Sturminfanteriegeschütz 33 (150ig mounted on StugIII chassis). Only 24 were ever manufactured and these were the last surviving 7. The next month the unit was disbanded and all personnel/equipment combined with - get this - the survivors from the 15th Panzer which had escaped from North Africa. This new unit was the 15th PZG division, which fought in the defense of Cassino, causing massive casualties to the US 36th division trying to cross the Rapido river 4 miles south of Cassino. I finally discovered this: 22nd Panzer Division (1 July) 28 Pz II 114 Pz 38(t) 12 Pz III Long (50L60) 11 Pz IV Short (75L24) Panzers on the Eastern Front Summer 1942 From Panzer Truppen Volume 1 by Thomas Jentz pages 236-239 This information leads me to believe the 204th regiment received large numbers of Pz38t's (almost double their previous allotment of 60) as well as 12 PzIII 50L60's, all probably during that 6 week refit between March 20 and May 7 1942. The original establishment 16 PzIVF1's indicates that they lost at least 5 on March 20, yet they were not replaced, probably because they were no longer in production and the newer PzIV models went to higher priority units. The 12 new PzIII's would help explain their much better performance against T34/KV1 armor during the later May 7 operation. That and 6 weeks of in-the-line combat training. They fought off the counterattack on May 8 and bagged an entire russian corp in Kerch.

Shmavis: Probably correct! This unit began forming up near Paris starting September 41. If I had to guess, which I do, I'd say they were brought up to full TOE for the decisive May 7 offensive. It is highly unlikely that any AFV's were recovered during the March 20 battle, as the losses occured 4-5km inside soviet lines. The main question for me is what models of tank did they get based on production and delivery schedules for that period. This was the only armor in the Crimea and clearly had second hand equipment even for early 42, but on the other hand Stalin and Hitler had made a big propoganda war out of the Crimea. So perhaps the replacement units were more advanced like MkIVF2 'specials', or MkIIIJ's. But then, adding yet another distinct AFV model to the battalion would only exacerbate maintenance and supply issues. On the other hand, maybe they just got a trainload of 38t's. As a historical note, the 22nd was sent to the stalingrad front immediately after Kerch and subsequently destroyed in the battles along the Chir.

This was one of the panzer divisions formed shortly after barbarossa out of 2nd hand equipment, refitted Czech tanks, and cadres contributed by existing units (undoubtedly the people they wanted to get rid of). Going into action for the first time, with no combat zone training, at 0600 hours on March 20, 1942 in the Karch Peninsula of the Crimea, 1/204th Panzer Battalion of 204 Regiment suffered 40% tank losses (23% overall for the regiment) when it got lost in fog, made a wrong turn, and encountered a Russian Independent Tank Brigade counterattacking from the northwest. Essentially they were mangled by T34s and KV-1's. After this debacle, the 22nd Panzer division was pulled back for a rest and refit. It next saw action on May 7 in the same terrain against the same opponents during the successful conquest of the Karch Peninsula, assisted by 5 seriously understrength infantry divisions and a few hungarian divisions. I found the equipment for March 20 from the regimental commander, Oberst Koppenburg, referenced in "Panzertruppen": 1/204th Battalion HQ: 1x Pz IIf, 1x Pz 38(t), 1x SdKfz 251 1st (Lt) Company: 5x Pz IIf, 15x Pz 38(t) 2nd (Lt) Company: 5x Pz IIf, 15x Pz 38(t) 3rd (Med) Company 5x Pz IIf, 8x Pz IVf1 Now, my question is, what kind of tank replacements might the regiment get during the 6-week rest/refit period? They lost 20-22 of the above tanks on March 20.

This problem (stopping big units early in their move with token units) could be addressed mostly by the designer creating ME's that feature at least company strength units. So no 3-jeep ME's. But you could still unrealistically delay a powerful armored unit with an infantry company, even assuming the big unit moves right through without much combat (infantry hides to survive) and pops out on the 2x2 BEHIND the inf co. If that's even possible in CMC. So good question, can you keep moving on the Operational map after stomping a unit, provided you have time left.

You can assign CMC manuever elements to be AI controlled, on either or both sides, I'm pretty sure. Could be wrong. So you could divide your ME's on the german side for instance into AI and player controlled, however you want. Handy if players can't play that weekend, or leave the campaign or whatever. The limiting factor is that at least one human has to be there for the CMBB battle! ** and i'm 99% sure the CMC AI will actually manuever the ME's on the operational map, entrench, defend, initiate CMBB battles (attack), etc. Could have some undesirable results, but that's the chance you take, hehe.

What I mean is the individual 120mm mortars and multiple rocket launchers wouldn't be able to use direct fire in most cases so their lack of representation in CMBB is not a biggie. Most artillery batteries had some self defense units either organic or attached. Could be represented by some light/green infantry and LMG teams, or whatever that national OOB would justify. At the very least bearers, drivers, ordnance and cooks could be thrown into adhoc defense squads, as sometimes was necessary. 'Big Dora' used in the assault on Sevastopol had an entire Luftwaffe regiment attached, and probably crew of several hundred. Of course this was a 3-storey high 800mm railgun with a 90 foot barrel.

From what I understand, victory points as we know them in CM will not have much if any meaning. Who wins will be determined by much more realistic and 'fuzzy' factors. Both sides may conclude they won a battle if they are both happy with the result. As far as territorial control after a CMBB battle, I think they said that control of the 4 1x1 sector flags in a CMBB 2x2 map determines who holds what 1x1 sector when the battle is over and the forces get spat back out onto the CMC map.

I think they said you can have the AI control one side in the CMBB battles. Horrible in attack. You will be consigning your attack force to oblivion unless you have at least 6:1 odds. Semi-decent in the defense, if the human player doesn't have much better than 2:1 odds or is inexperienced in attacking or CM generally.

and beer, don't forget beer.

Bruce, I think the deal is, you can associate any CMBB units you want with a CMC ME unit icon/type. You could use the cmc icon for a tank unit to represent a security platoon or other nonsense. It's up to the campaign designer to have it all make sense, like using proper Op map symbols to give players an accurate idea of the associated CMBB map. Just guessing based on the sketchy info so far. Steiner, the issue is that you have to use some stopgap CMBB unit to simulate arty that doesn't have a CMBB unit. Like howitzers over 10.5cm for germans (excepting 150IG) and over 76mm for russians (I think). You might use 85mm AA for rusky 122mm and larger. Rockets and 120mm mortars, that's tougher. Rockets couldn't defend themselves anyway, and you are probably inside the range of 120mm mortars, so they could be considers dead if you take the sector.

I wasn't trying to argue history. There are no 122mm or 152mm on board guns in CMBB so you will have to find a work around and rationalization to simulate the battery on board. Examples of this or that artillery engagement are moot.

Exactly my thoughts Sergei. It took months for me to finish my five simultaneous ROW games and I turned around orders in 24 hours, sometimes less. For one battle, we both had no life so we sat there swapping emails and finished in a day. But doing it that way was so much slower than TCP/IP. In ROW, no one in their right mind would use TIMED TCP. Except me, but i'm not in my right mind. I would hope to play timed 1 or 3-minute TCP games. Keep in mind you can save TCP/IP games any time and resume so you could have all of your TCP games going simultaneously just as with PBEM, but based on my experience with both, 5 tcp/ip games are going to be completed faster. I think the worry about battle results of one game affecting the next isn't a problem. All CMBB battle results are returned to CMC at the same time (meaning after all battles are resolved), which then handles the results and displays them on the Op map at the same time. Whether you are using PBEM or TCP/IP is immaterial to this. At least I THINK that's they way it will work.

Ideally it would be best if all these guns had on-map counterparts, as in a very few cases they really were used in direct fire. But you can work around that. You will have to. German batteries could field a scratch defense force of LMG teams and light infantry culled from the battery, transport, bearers, ordnance men, cooks etc. If I was simulating an on-map german arty battery, i'd assign a weak platoon of green infantry, 4xLMG and 4x75mm or 105mm guns. For 150 howitzer's and above, they are just to big and slow to react unless they are 150IG. I would just count them dead if they lost the battle (all flags taken). For the Ruskies, I would try to simulate 122mm and below with something. Above that, simply too big to manuever into position for defense, on short notice. If you lose the map flags, the guns are captured/destroyed.

Extrapolating from previous statements, your Op units appear back on the 2x2 grid in the 1x1's matching the flags they hold. If your side holds no flags I would guess you are thrown back to another 2x2 Op square! What i'm kinda curious about, and has been asked obliquely but not answered elsewhere, is if you can simply bypass or overrun the enemy during a tac battle and exit the other side of the map, ending the battle and appearing in the Op 2x2 square BEHIND the enemy. Like mechanized/armored unit bypassing a weak infantry force. That would be cool. Of course someone has to come clean up after you, typically the PIB, or you will run out of schnitzel and go-juice eventually.

Make me a playtester and i'll post good quality AAR's every day!

Winecape, let me play and i'll make lots of quality maps for it.