rune

Bringing this one back to life. Just completed a scenario based on fighting around the Gothic Line, 26 Dec 1944, featuring the Buffalo Soldiers. Let me know if you are interested in testing it. Rune

Guys, Went through everything I had and couldn't find anything. The only things I found on the net have to be taken with a grain of salt. If you go here: http://www.wwiivehicles.com/html/britain/PenetrationTables.htm#6pdr Look up the Churchill with the 6 pdr, then click on the 6 pdr to get the penetraion data and the above is what you get. I also found a miniature game that allows the Churchill to have the APCR. As I said, not very convincing sources, but listed them in case you were interested. Rune

Hey wafflers... I was swamped with a super secret project, soon at a website near you. So, who did i promise the latest rune scenario to? Will send it when I get home today. The super secret project? Keep eyes posted at www.battlefront.com. Rune

You don't like it if someone makes untrue claims, but then you turn around and try to speak for Battlefront. "Which I am sure will lead to BFC claiming that there will be no more patches because all the forum members are happy (because the first page of the forum is not full of reports anymore - which is caused by people giving up on reporting the same thing all over again each week)." Unless you suddenly work for Battlefront, or suddenly are privy to insider information, then you are full of hogwash. What you did was a cheap shot and that all what it was. Well, Moon already stated there will be a second patch, so you are wrong on that count already. What is fixed or not is a complete guess on your part, and your comments are nothing more then trying to put a bad light on what the guys are doing. Trust me, everyone sees EXACTLY what is happening. Rune [ March 02, 2004, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: rune ]

Joebob, Joebob, Joebob , As if anyone here would be gullible enough to believe you didn't know anything about the ARP. You were a founding member I believe.... Rune

Hmm...you do know that "Auntie Irene" was actually DaveH in drag, didn't you? Rune

DaveH, let me know when you may be ready... Also, in the book you talk about [Da Vinci Code], in the General Forum? Just letting you know that the butler [soddball?] did it. Rune

That is correct, it actually is a bug in MS Direct play according to Charles. Rune

I have a scenario that needs testing... It features... Canadian Crunchies German Crunchies Candian things that go BOOM German Things that go BOOM Italy 1944 More Canadian Crunchies More German Crunchies. Let me know if interested in testing, feedback and secrecy is REQUIRED. Rune

hey jon, Look at the first link I posted. Rune

Paulus, Will try to get to it tonight. The book is old, and I don't want to ruin it, but will give it a go. You want the stuff emailed? If so, will make it a smaller file, if you have an ftp site, I will create the better images on the scans. Rune

I just posted them as they had interesting stuff on the Tiger. As for the column shot, it hit at that range..but the target was a column. What did it hit? Would it be an area fire against a column of trucks? Too many unanswered questions. Found on other sites, the preferred open fire range was 1200 meters, but the tank was most effective between 800 and 1000. They were also told to fire occasionally at 2000 meters, as it was a way to demorlaize the enemy tanks since they couldn't hit htem back. Most effective doesn't mean anything. I was looking for combat reports where XX rounds were used to kill XX targets. Found one where 15 tanks were destroyed and the Tigers [2] only had 2 rounds left...but without ranges, does it also mean anything? Nope. I really don't want to bother my Uncle again, but I may. He was a Tiger crewman and eventually a tank commader. He has answered questions on the T34 [when he crewed a Pz III] and navwhachamacallit for us before. However, the process to get it translated by my mom and translated back was a bit much. He doesn't like to talk about the war, and his replies was the first anyone of my family ever got him to talk about it. Rune

Mark, Go ahead, I am busy with other things. Rune

Ken, Glad you saw the firing range stuff. As for typing skills, some of it was typed, and some was cut and paste. Snap shot, yep, but again, all the other factors STILL weigh into the equation. One thing I have learned, is seldom do things go right in combat. Some cool sites I found while looking up things. http://www.lonesentry.com/tigerflorence/ http://pkka.narod.ru/tiger.htm http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/5096/upgtiger.htm Just some interesting reading... Rune

You aren't reading correctly. The figures in the second column include the variation expected during practice firing due to differences between guns, ammunition and gunners. These accuracy tables do not reflect the actual probability of hitting a target under battlefield conditions. That is a direct quote from Jentz. Again, you are taking test range numbers and putting them into a battlefield situation. This is NOT correct. Let's see what could happen in battlefield conditions. On 1 July 1944, B Company tanks were assigned to support the 133rd Infantry Regiment's attack toward the eastern edge of the town of Cecina. The tankers moved out at 0800 hours and reached their objective by 1300, joining the infantry in the attack. Meanwhile, the tankers of A Company were really catching it even further to the east. They had succeeded in crossing the Cecina River and rejoining the 135th Infantry earlier in the morning. At 1400 hours, they resumed the tank/infantry attack toward the critical road junction of Highways 1 and 68. However, about 300 meters to the east of the road junction, at the Sirigatti farm near the Acquerta Stream, the A Company tankers ran into heavy fire from anti-tank weapons that were carefully concealed at Villa Cartoni just north of Highway 68. Five of the Shermans received direct hits and were set on fire, and four more were immobilized. Miraculously, only three A Company tankers were wounded. Back in town, Company B of the 752nd was ordered to move all of its tanks south of Cecina at around 1600 hours to support a different attack to the western edge of town. The commander of Company E of the 133rd Infantry Regiment heard his supporting tanks preparing to move out, and quickly convinced Major Woodbury of the 752nd to leave one platoon of tanks behind to defend the in-town forces. These were the five tanks that comprised B Company's 3rd Platoon. At 2030 hours, the five tanks from the 3rd Platoon of B Company of the 752nd received word via radio that the Germans were launching a combined tank/infantry counterattack from the eastern side of Cecina. The various American accounts differ in their estimates of the strength of the German counterattack, ranging between 5 and 10 Tiger tanks and between a platoon and 200 infantry. From the German accounts, it is now known that the counterattacking strength consisted of two Tiger tanks, one StuG III, and less than 50 grenadiers from the I./SS-PGR 35 of the 16. SS-Panzergrenadier-Division RFSS. Twilight was approaching as the Germans attacked, but there was still sufficient daylight left and visibility remained good. The sun was just above the horizon, and the moon was nearly at full transit, and three-fourths illuminated. The German column was led by Tiger 221 of the 2nd Platoon of the 2nd Company of the 504th Heavy Panzer Battalion, commanded by platoon leader Leutnant Keitel. The grenadiers were following their tanks in close ranks, in columns of two on either side of the road. The counterattacking column halted briefly in the cover of the brick factory that still exists today in the northern part of Cecina. Resuming its counterattack, the column advanced down a road from the vicinity of Villa Bianca, and turned left onto Via Marrucci. Moving slowly past Via Trento and Via Trieste, Tiger 221 began to negotiate a curve to the right onto Via Montanara, which was a gravel road that formed the eastern border of the town. Meanwhile, the five Sherman tanks of B Company's 3rd Platoon went out to meet the German counterattack. The platoon leader was Lieutenant Edwin W. Cox, commander of Sherman 11, which was a mid-production 75mm M4A1. Lieutenant Cox's plan was to advance toward the brick factory near the northern part of town, where the German column had first been spotted. As the 133rd Infantry took cover in the buildings in town, Lieutenant Cox strategically dispersed four of his five tanks into the streets of Cecina, then took his own tank alone up Via Montanara in an attempt to intercept the advancing German column. The German and American lead tanks were about to come face to face with one another, but neither crew was aware of this because the topography and buildings obstructed their view. Cox's Sherman had just passed Via Manzoni on its left. Just moments before Tiger 221 rounded the curve onto Via Montanara, the crew of Sherman 11 spotted a German infantry soldier in a ditch alongside the road. Unknown to the American tankers, the German scout was acting as a "spotter" for Tiger 221. As the infantry scout stood up to motion the Tiger on, he was immediately hit by machine gun fire, clasping his stomach as he fell. As the German spotter fell, the Sherman tank crew saw the main gun barrel of Tiger 221 emerge from behind a two-story house on the left side of Via Montanara near the curve in the road. At that moment, Tiger 221 rounded the curve onto Via Montanara and came face to face with the Lieutenant Cox's Sherman, at a distance of 75 to 100 yards. Both tanks fired simultaneously. The Tiger's 88mm shell struck the ground close to the left side of Cox's Sherman. The concussion of the Tiger's shot lifted the left side of the Sherman off the ground, but no damage was inflicted. At the same instant, the Sherman fired a 75mm armor piercing (AP) round, hitting the lower front hull of the Tiger. Crew members of the Sherman recalled seeing the shell merely bounce off the Tiger's hull. The only damage inflicted upon Tiger 221 by this hit was a chip in the Zimmerit coating, which is clearly visible in after-action photographs. The two tanks momentarily lost sight of each other in the dust that had been raised by the firing and movement of the tanks. Tiger 221's crew was further handicapped by the loss of their infantry spotter. Lieutenant Cox ordered his driver, Sergeant Raymond Holt, to back Sherman 11 into the dust, and then turn left through a small garden and position the tank tightly against the wall of a two-story home midway between Via Manzoni and Via Marrucci. In this position, the front of the Sherman was facing Via Trieste, and the rear was facing Via Montanara, where the Tiger remained. Lieutenant Cox then traversed the turret to the rear of his tank, with the main gun at the 5 o'clock position. Lieutenant Cox positioned his tank in that fashion to allow for a more rapid escape in the event that the Tiger approached from their rear and could not be successfully disabled. He had taken a calculated risk that the Tiger 221 would continue along its original path, and cross in front of their traversed main gun. Sherman 11 maintained this position for several minutes, while the German armor (or perhaps U.S. artillery) shelled the surrounding buildings. When the shelling stopped, Tiger 221 slowly lumbered down Via Montanara, unaware of the position of Cox's Sherman. In recent interviews, Tiger 221's crew members say that they believed the Sherman was in some brush to their 11 o'clock position. The time was 2045 hours. Tiger 221 slowly rumbled down Via Montanara, crossing the position of Sherman 11, which was hidden behind the building. With its crew unaware of Sherman 11's position, the Tiger moved perpendicular to the Sherman's rear and directly in front of its traversed main gun. As Tiger 221 slowly crossed before them, Lieutenant Cox calmly told his gunner "Hold on, hold on…" until the Tiger was squarely in front of them. Employing a tactic that exploited the Tiger's thinly armored sides, Lieutenant Cox then gave the order to unleash an armor piercing (AP) round through the Tiger's right rear sponson, into the fuel tank. Private Lord E. Ashercraft of the 34th Infantry Division's 133rd Infantry Regiment inspects the 75mm hole in Tiger 221 on 3 July 1944. Crew members of Sherman 11 estimate that they were between 25 and 30 yards from Tiger 221 when they fired. The very close range is corroborated by infantry eyewitness reports, by the commendation for the Silver Star that was later presented to Lieutenant Cox, and by detailed maps and photographic evidence. The 75mm AP round penetrated Tiger 221's hull and immediately ignited the fuel tank. Eyewitnesses from both the 133rd Infantry and the Sherman crew say that Tiger 221's engine compartment burst into flames when it was hit. Just a few seconds later, Sherman 11 fired another round into the Tiger's right track for good measure, severing it. So much for 100% kill at 75 meters. Range figures are good, for a range, it doesn't factor all the things in I mention over and over. Rune

Ahh...but you are taking range figures and trying to apply them to combat. The 93% figure COULD be hit by an experienced calm cool crew on a range with the second shot. Now, lets add in you just were hit by a 76mm and had your ears rung, you have been on the move for 3 days, and have not had time to adjust your sights, the ammo you loaded in a hurry wasn't even looked at. You last slept an hour maybe a day ago. You are being fired at by people unhappy with you, artillery and air power is trying to ruin your day. Now where does that 93% on a test range on a SECOND shot go? Range figures are great...for a range. Combat conditions are going to wreck those numbers in a hurry. Rune

And here is why I don't think they did miss the boat. These figures are test range. According to Jentz (JENTZ, Thomas L.; Germany's TIGER Tanks - Tiger I and II: Combat Tactics; op. cit.): "These accuracy tables are based on the assumptions that the actual range to the target has been correctly determined and that the distribution of hits is centered on the aiming point. The first column shows the accuracy obtained during controlled test firing to determine the pattern of dispersion. The figures in the second column include the variation expected during practice firing due to differences between guns, ammunition and gunners. These accuracy tables do not reflect the actual probability of hitting a target under battlefield conditions. Due to errors in estimating the range and many other factors, the probability of a first hit was much lower than shown in these tables. However, the average, calm gunner, after sensing the tracer from the first round, could achieve the accuracy shown in the second column". Accuracy: Gun 88 mm KwK 36 L/56 Ammunition Pzgr. 39 Pzgr. 40 Gr.39 HL Range 500 m 100 (100) 100 (100) 100 (98) 1000 m 100 (93) 99 (80) 94 (62) 1500 m 98 (74) 89 (52) 72 (34) 2000 m 87 (50) 71 (31) 52 (20) 2500 m 71 (31) 55 (19) 3000 m 53 (19) Source : JENTZ, Thomas L.; Germany's TIGER Tanks - Tiger I and II: Combat Tactics; ISBN 0-7643-0225-6 So, if the actual range was determined, at 1000 meter, using different ammo you had from a 62 to 93 percent chance of hitting the target. This is NOT under battle conditions. Now, lets add fatique to the crew, the chance the sights are off due to battle damage or movement to get to the battleifeld, just plain mis-calculation, or fear, differences in each ammo round, etc. etc. etc. So, a crack crew with a calm gunner could and did get first rounds hits, they were expected in the SECOND round shot to get the numbers in the () above. However, a more normal crew would not make these numbers even in the SECOND shot. Rune [ February 10, 2004, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: rune ]

Firing on a range is one thing, firing under combat, when people are doing their best to kill you, is quite another. Any tank crew can tell you anything can and does happen in combat. As for Air power killing most tanks, that is bunk. i refer to this: From "Flying Guns: World War II' by Tony Williams: "The fighter-bomber pilots pressed home their attacks with great courage throughout the campaign despite the often ferocious light FlaK which caused loss rates far above those experienced by fighter units (one Typhoon squadron suffered 100% casualties in an eighteen-month period). They were confident that any German tank they spotted was as good as dead, and they earned a considerable reputation for tank killing, with substantial claims being accepted. However, British operational research (OR) carried out at the time (but not publicised for obvious reasons) presented a more complex picture. As the Allies were advancing, intelligence officers were often able to examine a battlefield shortly after an air attack, and what they discovered causes controversy even today. (Much of this section is taken from Ian Gooderson's "Air Power at the Battlefront", which explores this issue in great detail). The evidence gathered by the OR teams indicated that very few tanks were destroyed by air attack. A British War Office analysis of 223 Panther tanks destroyed in 1944 revealed that only fourteen resulted from air attack (eleven to RPs and three to aircraft cannon). During the Mortain battle of 7-10 August, the RAF and USAAF launched sustained attacks on a German armoured column over a period of six hours, claiming 252 German tanks destroyed or damaged in nearly 500 sorties. It was subsequently discovered that there had only been a total of 177 tanks or tank destroyers deployed by the Germans and just 46 of those were lost, of which only nine could be attributed to air attack (seven to RPs and two to bombs). During the German retreat from the Falaise pocket later in August, the RAF and USAAF claimed 391 armoured vehicles destroyed. Shortly afterwards, the battlefield was examined and only 133 armoured vehicles of all types were found, of which just 33 had been the victim of any sort of air attack. In the retreat to the Seine, large numbers of armoured vehicles were left behind and Typhoon pilots alone claimed 222 destroyed, but only thirteen out of 388 AFVs examined were found to have been knocked out by RP attack. In the Ardennes salient, just seven out of 101 knocked-out AFVs were definitely or possibly attributed to air attack, compared with claims for 90. It should be noted that in the prevailing circumstances of a continuing retreat, there was no question of the German Army having recovered any damaged tanks in these later actions, in fact the battlefields were often littered with undamaged tanks abandoned by their crews. One source estimates that probably no more than about 100 tanks were lost due to hits from air weapons during the entire Normandy campaign. In contrast, the RAF's 2nd TAF (including elements of the Air Defence of Britain which took part in the campaign) and the USAAF's 9th Air Force lost over 1,700 aircraft between them. The ineffectiveness of air attack against tanks should have caused no surprise because the weapons available to the fighter-bombers were not suitable for destroying them. Put simply, the heavy machine guns and 20 mm cannon were capable of hitting the tanks easily enough, but insufficiently powerful to damage them, except occasionally by chance. The RPs and bombs used were certainly capable of destroying the tanks but were too inaccurate to hit them, except occasionally by chance." Rune

Von Paulus, I have the maps from Two Ocean war. I can try to scan them and see how they turn out. It had the routes of the German Panzer IVs, German Tigers, and Italian Tanks for the counter-attacks if you are interested. Rune

587.5 meters Rune

And this, Ladies and gentlemen of the MBT is why you should give to the Alzheimer's Association in your area. With your help, we can get Joebob to try any different attempt at humor instead of him repeating himself endlessly. With your generous support, maybe someday he will remember to send moves, or what a keyboard is for. On second thought, at his advanced age, there IS only so much modern medical science can do. Carry on... Rune

Acey, Acey, Acey, Think about it...without the Navy, you would be....the Army. Equipped with older weapons too! Oh, and no one tell Joebob that the Tamagotchi is comming back. Last time he was in mourning when his died. I didn't have the heart to tell it it really wasn't alive. Rune

Some clarifications... Emma, No, Boo said he has a 3 inch driveway. The rest is a bobsled track. Aces, Hmm a Marine Officer on his back. The possibilities are endless....but no, too easy. Will let you slide down Boo's bobsled run. Berli, Berli, dagnabbit, the Washingtonians and Canucks are having a get together...is it time to have one and show them how it is done RIGHT? Rune

I didn't say everyone who wants something whines, but there are also some out there that would never be satisfied. Rune

Last time. Charles is the only coder for BFC. There are so many hours in the day that can be spent on either a game 2 years old [CMBB], or to develop something newer and greater. Simple.. Also, if you want the company to survive, they need to make money. In order to make money, they need to bring out new product. Last, as seen by the whineing on this forum, we can add and add forever, and someone will still whine something is not right, or needs to be added. Going to add one more. Name me another game that goes into this level of detail. What is lost or forgotten by everyone, is the game was ground breaking in many areas. First to admit it isn't perfect, there comes a time to go to the next generation. CMX2 is the next generation. CMBB is NOT abandonware, however, there will be no more enhancements to the engine. Time to move on to better and better things. Rune