Storm over Europe - Comments, Questions, etc.

[The K Man]

I would like to start off by saying thank you for another fine game for all involved in the making, testing and listening. In my opinion, this is the best one of the series. I have played them all, but this one is by far my favorite, even in the limited time I have had to play it. The best part of "The Great War" is the fact that you are getting two games in one. I played a little bit of the WWI campaign, and did enjoy that as well. But time being what it is, my time now goes to the Storm over Europe campaign. I can not speak for the AI, as I have only played human vs human, which is usually the best way to go.

But of course the more you play, the more questions that seem to come up, so I figured I would take the time to make some notes here. Sorry for any that have been brought up before (that I have missed.) This is all regarding Storm over Europe. (And still on the 1.02 patch to finish out those games.)

1) I have seen the players guide and notes on playing WWII campaign in the Manual folders. Is there another guide that I am missing? That could answer some of my next questions.

2) How do you swap one unit with another (to flip locations)? Can that be done in the Storm game. I haven't figured it out, unless its a future game patch option.

3) Can Carriers do a recon search? Seems to give me the option, but when I click on a carrier, whether I move him or not I can not recon in the highlighted area where he could have moved. I can fly to the areas outside the highlighted range, but some times I'd like to recon maybe in the area right above me, and it won't allow it.

4) When you do a recon, what is the range of the recon area? If I fly to a city to see what is in it, am I only seeing that square or all the ones around it? Is there a difference between fighters and bombers (as far as recon flights?)

5) What is the HQ range for supporting a unit? With Germany it appears to be 7 squares away (depending on the terrain of course.) But I noticed in Russia, as I moved my HQ 9 squares away, that he still supported the unit even by my next turn. (Until I unattached the HQ off the unit, he was unable to "reattach" that unit 9 squares away.) Is that something new or just a glitch? (I use Auto assist on the HQ to attach units.)

6) Does the HQ supply work differently in this game? Before in Russia as long as I could count 10 spaces back to a city in Poland or Romania my HQ was in 10 supply. Now I notice the HQ is down to 8 fairly quickly, even when I can count back 10 to a city (not town.) Maybe it is the terrain, and I am miscounting. But just wondering if it works the same as the other games (PDE, WAW, etc.)

7) Rockets for Germany appear to be glorified Artillery in this one. Not V-2's like in prevous games. Although I haven't hit research level 2 (max) but on level 1 the range is still 2 squares. I do like the fact that they have been reduced and maxed out lower. (They were unrealisticly powerful in the older games.) But I did figure to go up to range 3 when I hit the level 1 tech hit. Are these not the V-2's of the previous games?

8) I know this has been discussed on the forum, but what are we trying to accomplish with the destroyer (allied) in the Norway port once Norway surrenders? It does take some $ to be able to remove him. And the allied player can just continue to reinforce him, since as long as it it there, no $ comes in on the convoy. I guess if that is the intent, then fine. I am just not a big fan of it. If the purpose is to reduce the convoy $ temporarily, then I'd rather see the port start at zero after surrender, and take 5 turns to be back up in operation.

9) Prior to the War in Russia, and in 1941, where are the units by Axis suppose to be for Russian Readiness not to jump up faster than normal? I saw the info in the manual about Warsaw and Konigsberg, and units near Tilsit and Siedlice. But do I need 2 units near each of those 4 cities in 41? I went in 41 from 31% readiness to 41, then like 60, before I started guessing at the extra units and got some message about Warsaw and Konigsberg where each had one unit at the time so I added a second to each city. That appeared to calm Russia, down until May/June where it spiked again. (Too many units on border?) I was trying to keep less than six near Tilsit and less than 8 near Siedlice.

10) This was also on the forum, but I do like the new tech system so far. I've had too many of those 5 tech Panthers or 5 tech Jets attacking my 1 tech units in 1941 in Russia. No fun. I don't think its too predictable, because most of these improvements in real life had some sort of time table of when it might be ready. There is your predictablility.

11) I would still like to have an option added to ground units to click on that they will not retreat (Stand and die orders.) There were certain units in Poland and France I did not want to move no matter what happened, but they did. I like having the retreat option, but would like to be able to change certain individual ones.

12) Shouldn't there be an option to go to the redsea/persian gulf near the bottom of the atlantic screen? Right now it is near France/Spain. Thats good if your coming from UK, and saves u the hassle of moving all the way down. (Although that all allows u to escape any u-boats on the way down, which I don't like.) But I was moving a transport from Canada to Middle east, and originally was going through Gibralta to get there, but changed my mind (due to Italian navy) and wanted to do the Africa loop to Redsea. But now to get there, I had to travel north to the Spain/France area to get in the loop to go south. Bit unrealistic I think. I guess the U-boats can get me on the way up (for my real trip down.)

Thanks again for a job well done!!

[Hyazinth von Strachwitz]

(2) Click on one unit. Press shift. An Icon appears. Move that Icon over the unit you want to swap with. Click mouse. Watch swap animation.

(5) There has been a bug that should be fixed in 1.03

[Glabro]

(9) If you had less than six and less than eight together, that's probably a dozen units! It was OR, not and. 6 if you're closer in, 8 if you're further off.

[rjh1971]

(3) That was a bug, reported fixed in v1.03

[ev]

(9) If you had less than six and less than eight together, that's probably a dozen units! It was OR, not and. 6 if you're closer in, 8 if you're further off.

Closer or Further off?

How close is close?

[Glabro]

I mean those two cities, Tilsit and Siedlice.

[AZGungHo]

I figured out the swapping thing, but can't seem to find out how to force march. As the German you need that to get everyone from Poland to France in time in 1940, unless you want to go broke! Can you force march in the WW2 scenario, and if so how?

[Glabro]

It's there, just press the forced march button on the upper right after selecting the unit. A keyboard shortcut would be nice, or perhaps I just forgot about it.

[AZGungHo]

Thanks Glabro! I never looked there after clicking a unit before - DUH!!

[SeaMonkey]

OK guys, some of this discussion just underscores what I've been saying for years now, and really......I have no doubt the Hubert will eventually incorporate such a feature.

We need that underlying communication network, that web of logistics that connects the whole map to each empire. The convoys that are player selected by using waypoints, the kind that enemy interdiction can be opportunistic with and can certainly be modified at the owning players' whim.

The kind that have resources flow both ways, what could be more realistic? Anyone out there know of a game that has such a model we might rely on with a foundation for SC?

[Kommandant]

The kind that have resources flow both ways, what could be more realistic? Anyone out there know of a game that has such a model we might rely on with a foundation for SC?

I think that this is a great casual wargame... It could be more realistic of couse, which would spice thing up, but as I said, it’s a causal wargame...

If you want something really realistic and hardcore, try out Hearts of Iron, but go into the modding community.... You will won't get yourself disappointed...

I played a lot of Hearts of Iron 2 Arsenals of democracy, and I still play it btw...

But most of the times ti’s much more fun to play SC...

[Bill101]

Hi

I would like to start off by saying thank you for another fine game for all involved in the making, testing and listening. In my opinion, this is the best one of the series. I have played them all, but this one is by far my favorite, even in the limited time I have had to play it.

Thanks, glad you like it!

As some of your questions have already been answered I'll just add a few more comments to some of them.

Bill

4) When you do a recon, what is the range of the recon area? If I fly to a city to see what is in it, am I only seeing that square or all the ones around it? Is there a difference between fighters and bombers (as far as recon flights?)

It is to the target area plus one tile around it, and you will also spot everything under your flight path, and any aircraft with recon capability can do this.

6) Does the HQ supply work differently in this game? Before in Russia as long as I could count 10 spaces back to a city in Poland or Romania my HQ was in 10 supply. Now I notice the HQ is down to 8 fairly quickly, even when I can count back 10 to a city (not town.) Maybe it is the terrain, and I am miscounting. But just wondering if it works the same as the other games (PDE, WAW, etc.)

The supply and HQ rules are the same, but it could be that on the bigger map as you move further away from friendly territory it will suffer more. However, to compensate for that the maximum supply value of Soviet cities under Axis occupation has been raised from 5 to 8.

7) Rockets for Germany appear to be glorified Artillery in this one. Not V-2's like in prevous games. Although I haven't hit research level 2 (max) but on level 1 the range is still 2 squares. I do like the fact that they have been reduced and maxed out lower. (They were unrealisticly powerful in the older games.) But I did figure to go up to range 3 when I hit the level 1 tech hit. Are these not the V-2's of the previous games?

They are now more like the Nebelwerfers and Katyushas, so their range won't increase with research but their effectiveness will.

12) Shouldn't there be an option to go to the redsea/persian gulf near the bottom of the atlantic screen? Right now it is near France/Spain. Thats good if your coming from UK, and saves u the hassle of moving all the way down. (Although that all allows u to escape any u-boats on the way down, which I don't like.) But I was moving a transport from Canada to Middle east, and originally was going through Gibralta to get there, but changed my mind (due to Italian navy) and wanted to do the Africa loop to Redsea. But now to get there, I had to travel north to the Spain/France area to get in the loop to go south. Bit unrealistic I think. I guess the U-boats can get me on the way up (for my real trip down.)

There are loops off the east coast of the USA which you should be able to use, and they should save you a lot of time moving your units.

[The K Man]

Thanks, guys for the help on these questions. I'm sure alot will be by trial and error.

[Ivanov]

They are now more like the Nebelwerfers and Katyushas, so their range won't increase with research but their effectiveness will.

I would like to give, at least to the German player, an opportunity to invest in the ballistic missiles, just like in the previous WWII scenarios. It would give the Germans some unique trump in the strategic warfare. Of course it would require heavy investment, but I always liked the rockets, because they were cheaper than the bombers, not affected by wheather and impossible to counter ( sometimes I had to perform tactical parachute assaults in order to destroy their sites ). V1s and V2s didn't play a significant role in WWII, but I can imagine that if they were introduced earlier and in bigger numbers, that could be a completely different story. I think, that it would be a nice "what if" option to explore in the game.

The current Katyusha and nebelwerfer units are certainly cool weapon systems, but their cost is 80% of the tank group, so not many players will decide to purchase them anyway.

[Ludi1867]

I would like to give, at least to the German player, an opportunity to invest in the ballistic missiles, just like in the previous WWII scenarios. It would give the Germans some unique trump in the strategic warfare. Of course it would require heavy investment, but I always liked the rockets, because they were cheaper than the bombers, not affected by wheather and impossible to counter ( sometimes I had to perform tactical parachute assaults in order to destroy their sites ). V1s and V2s didn't play a significant role in WWII, but I can imagine that if they were introduced earlier and in bigger numbers, that could be a completely different story. I think, that it would be a nice "what if" option to explore in the game.

The current Katyusha and nebelwerfer units are certainly cool weapon systems, but their cost is 80% of the tank group, so not many players will decide to purchase them anyway.

Hi Ivanov

I would like to offer a contrary argument to your perspective. I am quite content that the V weapon program is now not an option in SC Storm over Europe. My reasons are as follows:

a. The new research system is very effective for evolutionary designs, but much less satisfactory for revolutionary systems. Most weapon systems are evolutionary in nature, and it is reasonable to have new designs arrive within a reasonably predictable time line, which is exactly what the new system provides. However, a handful of weapons are quite revolutionary. What are revolutionary weapons? Very unusual weapons that required rather unique design decisions. The V weapons probably qualify as unique, although the V-1 is perhaps arguable. The V-2 was quite unique, and there was never any Allied design at all like it. But even for the Germans, the reasons for their success revolved more around a rather ingenious design team (led by von Braun) and heavy political patronage resulting in the assignment of massive amounts of labour, including a rather sick amount of slave labour. The SC design is NOT, in my view, capable of reflecting the unique aspects of the V-2, and having it in earlier designs may, perhaps have been 'fun', but it was pretty weird.

b. If 'revolutionary' designs are going to be allowed, then there should be Allied revolutionary weapons possibilities provided so as to balance the game. Were their Allied 'revolutionary' weapons? Absolutely. The most revolutionary one ended up being developed just a little bit late (historically) for Europe, although that was the main theatre it was intended for. However, the nuclear devices used at Hiroshima and Nagasaki likely had an important impact on the end of the Pacific war. (I am NOT going to get into the argument of how much of an impact, as that is a very complex issue). Could the atomic weapons have been available for Europe? Well, arguably, if the war had extended just a little bit, they might well have been used there first. If the Germans are going to be allowed V-2s, then it would only be 'fair' to allow the US to develop a nuclear option.

I think, at the end of the day, the most important factors in the game are to try and provide as much historical flavour as reasonable while still allowing a somewhat 'balanced' game. Arguably (and certainly so far in my experience) the game designers have made quite a few concessions to ensure that the Axis have a chance for victory. (So far, I would argue that the Axis have too great a chance for victory, as US industrial levels seem to have been seriously reduced). Avoiding revolutionary weapon options altogether seems preferable to trying to include only the Axis option, as was done in previous SC designs.

[Ivanov]

I think, at the end of the day, the most important factors in the game are to try and provide as much historical flavour as reasonable while still allowing a somewhat 'balanced' game.

Hi Ludi!

Exactly right - I would like to see the V-weapons in the game, just in order to add some historical flavour to it I don't think that if German player could deploy let's say 3 rocket units it would change the balance too much - it would just spice up things a bit-that's all. It would give the Axis player an opportunity to affect for example a little the British industrial production and smart players could use the rocket units tacticaly on the front, in order to reduce the supply of the enemy units. It seems to me more historicaly appropiate if the Axis player used rockets in order to acomplish this, than by deploying of a huge bomber force. It happened during WWII - V weapons were lunched against England and later quite considerable number of them was directed against Antwerp, a port, that was of the primordial importance for the Allied supply in the Western Europe at the end of 1944. In total around 10000 V1s and 3000 V2s were lunched against various targets, so calling them experimental, low series weapon systems, does not seem to be correct. Let's not forget that during the years 1942-45, the German industry managed to produce about 6000 famous Panther tank, which was destined to became the main tank of the German panzer divisions, during the second half of the war. If we compare the 6000 Panthers produced to more than 13000 V1s and V2s, it seems that the former - a tank - was some kind of unique, experimental wunderwaffe...

The V weapons luckily proved to be ineffective and did not affect in any way, the final outcome of the war ( however the families of more than 30000, mainly English civilians killed by them, may have a completely diffrent view regarding their effectiveness ). I am far from making the game unrealistic and from giving too many trumps to the Axis ( I agree that the US industrial output is too low ), but I still think that 2-3 rocket units, wouldn't do too much harm to the realism and playability of the game.

[Ivanov]

Ps. I regards to the revolutionary weapon systems in the game. Germans can upgrade their fighter force to the absulotely revolutionary Me262 ( 1400 built in total ), and equip their whole fighter force with it.

The nebelwerfers and katyushas currently present in the game, were also completly new weapon systems and surely had considerable impact on the battlefield.