Palin: Iraq war 'a task that is from God'

[Tarquelne]

So, what was/is the difference?

In my opinion, neither is a theocrat and are pragmatic about their religion.

It's not their attitude toward religion that I'm saying one's pragmatic about and the other isn't, it's their attitude toward everything else.

Why is Palin OK with ID being taught in schools? *I* think it's not some conclusion she came to completely independent of her religious beliefs. I think it' one she came to directly because of those beliefs. Or, really, the way she allows religion to color everything else. In the sense I defined above that makes her a "theocrat."

At the very least it makes her un-pragmatic in her approach to the world. I'd say her stance on sex-ed is a perfect example of that. Supporting only "Abstinence-till-marriage" is completely correct as far as many religious people are concerned. However, it would be a perfect dictionary illustration for "unpragmatic." If there were really such a word, and if you didn't use a pornographic picture.

[Dirtweasle]

Gosh, I hope I won't have to post a list of quotes by Senator Biden and Obama talking about their faith in public. <GASP!> Or, Saint's preserve us, point out how Sen. Obama chose Sen. Biden because of his Catholic faith, his being firmly rooted in the culture and his established record of interactions with and support of a variety of Catholic groups? I shudder at the very thought.

[Wilhammer]

I have the same thought DW - someone is not seeing the equal 'guilt' of the opposition.

Catholics are truly weird - they eat the Flesh of their God, drink His blood, and in defiance of the no idolatry rule, idolize all kinds of relics and people (Saints).

They also have a strong system that is Pro Life - every bit as 'radical' as Palin's.

And never has a religion been so 'It's God's Plan' in foreign and national affairs as that one.

-----------

For the record - for an internet discussion on politics and region this has been very civil and all - good thing; these discussions usually tank pretty fast.

[Tarquelne]

Gosh, I hope I won't have to post a list of quotes by Senator Biden and Obama talking about their faith in public. <GASP!> Or, Saint's preserve us, point out how Sen. Obama chose Sen. Biden because of his Catholic faith, his being firmly rooted in the culture and his established record of interactions with and support of a variety of Catholic groups? I shudder at the very thought.

Gosh, I don't supposed you've missed the entire point of my last couple of posts? Hell, on the first few pages a couple of other people discussed the difference between talking about faith (or just God - Patton was talking about the freakin' wather) and what Palin's done with the pipeline. And, again, just what they *say* isn't really the point. As I've said the "God's pipeline" thing could have been anything from pandering to a less-than-perfectly formulated sentence. The problem is that it really seems representative of Palin's actions/positions.

Pandering isn't what I'm talking about at all, or why I'm in anyway displeased with Palin. On that score you're attacking a strawman.

There's a huge difference between being a person of faith to any degree and rather uncritically allowing that faith to dictate your policy positions and/or largely replace your thinking.

I've laid out why I think Palin is a theocrat and exactly what I mean by that word. You're being lamely sarcastic. "Lame" because you've entirely missed the point. I can excuse your lack of comprehension but lame sarcasm really ticks me off. It's blasphemous.

To the point: Lets see the list, and I want you to explain how they're like Palin's statements. I'm not going to go through and point out how they're different. I've become very wary of "arguing" with a bunch of cut-and-paste. It's too easy for someone to just cut-and-paste more and more in response rather than do some actual thinking.

[Tarquelne]

I have the same thought DW - someone is not seeing the equal 'guilt' of the opposition.

Show me Obama or Biden's faith dictating some important and/or impractical policy decisions and I'll agree.

Catholics are truly weird - they eat the Flesh of their God, drink His blood, and in defiance of the no idolatry rule, idolize all kinds of relics and people (Saints).

My issue with Palin isn't her relgion, it's what she does with it.

Rest assured that if Biden starts saying cannibalistic feasts in schools would be a good thing I'll criticize him, too.

To repeat:

It's not their attitude toward religion that I'm saying one's pragmatic about and the other isn't, it's their attitude toward everything else.

[akd]

It's not their attitude toward religion that I'm saying one's pragmatic about and the other isn't, it's their attitude toward everything else.

Why is Palin OK with ID being taught in schools? *I* think it's not some conclusion she came to completely independent of her religious beliefs. I think it' one she came to directly because of those beliefs. Or, really, the way she allows religion to color everything else. In the sense I defined above that makes her a "theocrat."

She clarified that her attitude was that there she be no prohibition against discussing creationism in school, that if a student asked a question, a teacher should be able to engage the student in a discussion. FYI, Palin's father was a high school science teacher

She, of course, never took any action towards instituting creationism in schools, nor did she appoint anyone into positions of power that had that agenda. She is pragmatic in governing.

At the very least it makes her un-pragmatic in her approach to the world. I'd say her stance on sex-ed is a perfect example of that. Supporting only "Abstinence-till-marriage" is completely correct as far as many religious people are concerned. However, it would be a perfect dictionary illustration for "unpragmatic." If there were really such a word, and if you didn't use a pornographic picture.

Her personal belief is in an absistence-based approach, and she has only specifically objected to mandatory explicit sex education. She thinks students should have information on condoms.

Once again, she never took any action as governor to implement her personal beliefs in Alaska's schools. She is pragmatic in governing.

More than anything, she believe's in parental choice in a child's education, and that seems to be her principle guideing light.

[Tarquelne]

She clarified that her attitude was that there she be no prohibition against discussing creationism in school, that if a student asked a question, a teacher should be able to engage the student in a discussion. FYI, Palin's father was a high school science teacher

Her original statements were too strong for me to believe the clarification. The "clarification" is almost a reversal - from "I'm a proponent of teaching both." to "I don't think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class."

She, of course, never took any action towards instituting creationism in schools, nor did she appoint anyone into positions of power that had that agenda. She is pragmatic in governing.

I think that's setting too low a bar on "pragmatic." I mean something more than "Not attempting to rule from religious authority." ie, I still think it shows she's got a lot of ignorance to share.

...and she has only specifically objected to mandatory explicit sex education.

Show me a quote and I'll believe you. All I've seen was her unqualified "won't support explicit sex ed." I'd also appreciate some context on what she means by "explicit". (Where I am "explicit sex ed" is generally used to force a false binary.)

Once again, she never took any action as governor to implement her personal beliefs in Alaska's schools. She is pragmatic in governing.

Again I think it's lowering the bar way too much to say that's an example of pragmatism.

And now she's up for a position with a lot more power and influence, and may be at it a lot longer than she was governor. I know the previous governor did have creationism in schools come up as an issue. Palin didn't push it, but we don't know what she'd do if she had to make a decision other than "Push or don't push," do we?

And if so that's still at a position with considerably less direct and indirect power than VP/president.

As president she'd have a lot of influence, via appointments, for one example, in how rules are interpreted. I think Bush's influence led to some real problems at the DoJ, the FDA, the EPA, and well, you get the idea. Then there's funding.... Sure, as governor she didn't withdraw support from non-abstinence only programs. I know she'll have a shot at it as president. Bush already explored that territory with a lot of faith-based/restricted stuff. She wouldn't even have to pioneer.

But lets assume you're right about her "pragmatism", which you seem to be using as "won't shove her beliefs down our throats." (That's of course my harsh phrasing.)

Ok, fine - I still think she's too ignorant about some important matters to trust as VP/pres. That's based on a few things, but the one that keeps coming to mind is her ID statements. Even if I accepted the clarification, that's still too much ignorance for my taste. ("ID" is *exactly* as much an alternative to evolution as the FSM. Debate on the FSM is just as "healthy.") It may have a lot to do with my training, but I have almost no tolerance for that sort of sloppy thinking.

I have no problem with her believing there's a Creator (or IDer) or speaking about it in public. But - pending revelations that she's a highly independent philosophical Maverick - I'm going to go with Ockham's Razor and assume she picked up her ID beliefs from church. And her sex-ed beliefs. That she doesn't run out and try to impose those beliefs on others is good. (Though if she's never going to do that why is she so popular with those who do want the gov. "legislating in the bedroom."...?) But from my POV they still leave her looking like a "theocrat." Or maybe just a dittohead. (Catch her talking about F. Mae/Mac? Maybe she meant implicit gov. support or the charter. I think Ockham's Razor says: Standard GOP talking points inappropriately applied.)

So if she's been pragmatic so far I don't trust her to stay that way. I don't trust her to know where the line between fact-based and fantasy-based is. She's going to have to get a lot of information from other people - subject-matter experts - and I don't think she has a good framework for sorting wishful thinking from solid fact.

EDIT: Dropping out of the discussion. I want to say I've no reason - other than her party - to think Palin is malicious, stupid, too religious, or a or a religious bigot or nut. I'm willing to giver her a pass on everything on the church videos, even the "God's will" thing. I've been poking around the web for info on Palin and I think she's already showed more intelligence, general competence, and speaking ability than the W. I think she's more fit to be Pres. than him. A lot more. For the reasons I've given above, though, I don't think that's good enough.

[GJK]

In case it wasn't posted in this thread previously; Palin Fact Check (Newsweek)

[Blackhorse]

Bravo Zulu GJK.

[Stalins Organ]

I think this one has successfully crossed the line...

Hi Mom!

[Blackhorse]

I think this one has successfully crossed the line...

Hi Mom!

Long long time ago.

[akd]

I have the fortune of being a single issue voter, so I don't have to worry about all these complex issues.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I think this one has successfully crossed the line...

Hi Mom!

It's been my experience that as long as we keep it civil BFC will not come in here busting heads. The "no politics" seems pretty much there to justify the pre-emptive strike on threads about to go bad.

Also, the back of the mind guilt of discussing that what shalt not be discusseth seems to be keeping us punters on our best behaviour in these types of threads.

[Stalins Organ]

.

Catholics are truly weird - they eat the Flesh of their God, drink His blood, and in defiance of the no idolatry rule, idolize all kinds of relics and people (Saints).

Ah....

yes, yes, yes, and no, in that order.

Catholics do not idolize anything. They use images as focuses for prayer and to direct their thoughts.

At least that's what they taught me at Catholic schools a while back.

but I gave it all up for something sensible anyway.

[Abbott]

My issue with Palin isn't her relgion, it's what she does with it.

Your issue with Palin means nothing.

[John Kettler]

akd,

Truly deranged and made me crack up!

Regards,

John Kettler

[dieseltaylor]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_7600000/7600592.stm

A very interesting, and amusing piece, on the counter-productive nature of attacking Palin - and the redneck vote. Given some of the wilder accusations it does make me wonder how much of this is orchestrated to aid Palin.

Incidentally the idea that you sack your staff as a loyalty test seems very odd to those of us who believe that roles such as librarians are apolitical roles.

However I suppose this will be a case of mimicking central politics. Get my guys in and then stir the pot. Great way to run things - not.

I am sure someone will point to previous Presidents who have installed supporters but my gut reaction is nowadays it seems loyalty/political agendaism is more important than brains and long term thinking.

I admire McCain but could not, even if I were able to, vote for someone whose credentials are Mayor of a "city" of 8000 people, and Governor of Alaska. At 71 that is what votes for McCain means to me - I am electing Palin.

[Wilhammer]

Great Article!

Love this bit; and this is why Palin works as a candidate;

"....most of all we are defiant and suspicious of authority, and people who are "uppity" (sophisticated) and "slick" (people who use words with more than three syllables). Two should be enough for anybody.

"And that is one of the reasons that, mystifying as it is to the outside world, John McCain's choice of the moose-shooting Alaskan woman with the pregnant unmarried teen daughter appeals to many redneck and working class Americans. We all understand that there is a political class which dominates in America, and that Sarah Palin for damned sure is not one of them."

[GJK]

You can feel the energy zapping away from the Obama campaign. Let's face it, Biden was not the signature "change" that he's been promoting and now their making (lipstick & moose shooter) quips about Palin on the trail instead of going after McCain; whom he'll be on stage debating soon. Maybe I'll call a prediction that Obama sacks Biden and pulls Hillary back onto the ticket at the last moment. That would really shake things up.

I know that I'll draw snickers, but has anybody seen the O'Reilly/Obama interviews? Obama on O'Reilly. Ok, I agree, let's have McCain on Matthews or (choke) Keith Overbite's show for comparison's sake....

[dieseltaylor]

As it is too good to miss here is the whole BBC article. - less some pictures

Why rednecks may rule the world

By Joe Bageant

Author of Deerhunting With Jesus

During this US election cycle we are hearing a lot from the pundits and candidates about "heartland voters," and "white working class voters."

What they are talking about are rednecks. But in their political correctness, media types cannot bring themselves to utter the word "redneck." So I'll say it for them: redneck-redneck-redneck-redneck.

The fact is that we American rednecks embrace the term in a sort of proud defiance. To us, the term redneck indicates a culture we were born in and enjoy. So I find it very interesting that politically correct people have taken it upon themselves to protect us from what has come to be one of our own warm and light hearted terms for one another.

On the other hand, I can quite imagine their concern, given what's at stake in the upcoming election. We represent at least a third of all voters and no US president has ever been elected without our support.

Consequently, rednecks have never had so many friends or so much attention as in 2008. Contrary to the stereotype, we are not all tobacco chewing, guffawing Southerners, but are scattered from coast to coast. Over 50% of us live in the "cultural south", which is to say places with white Southern Scots-Irish values - redneck values.

They include western Pennsylvania, central Missouri and southern Illinois, upstate Michigan and Minnesota, eastern Connecticut, northern New Hampshire…

So when you look at what pundits call the red state heartland, you are looking at the Republic of Redneckia.

As to having our delicate beer-sodden feelings protected from the term redneck; well, I appreciate the effort, though I highly suspect that the best way to hide snobbishness is to pose as protector of any class of folks you cannot bear. Thus we are being protected by the very people who look down on us - educated urban progressives.

And let's face it, there's plenty to look down on. By any tasteful standard, we ain't a pretty people. We come in one size: extra large. We are sometimes insolent and often quick to fight. We love competitive spectacle such as NASCAR and paintball, and believe gun ownership is the eleventh commandment.

We fry things nobody ever considered friable - things like cupcakes, banana sandwiches and batter dipped artificial cheese…even pickles.

And most of all we are defiant and suspicious of authority, and people who are "uppity" (sophisticated) and "slick" (people who use words with more than three syllables). Two should be enough for anybody.

And that is one of the reasons that, mystifying as it is to the outside world, John McCain's choice of the moose-shooting Alaskan woman with the pregnant unmarried teen daughter appeals to many redneck and working class Americans.

We all understand that there is a political class which dominates in America, and that Sarah Palin for damned sure is not one of them. And the more she is attacked by liberal Democratic elements (translation: elite highly-educated big city people) the more America's working mooks will come to her defence. Her daughter had a baby out of wedlock? Big deal. What family has not? She is a Christian fundamentalist who believes God spat on his beefy paws and made the world in seven days? So do at least 150 million other Americans. She snowmobiles and fishes and she is a looker to boot. She's a redneck.

American ethos

The term redneck indicates a lifestyle and culture that can be found in every state in our union. The essentials of redneck culture were brought to America by what we call the Scots Irish, after first being shipped to the Ulster Plantation, where our, uh, remarkable cultural legacy can still be seen every 12 July in Ireland.

Ultimately, the Scots Irish have had more of an effect on the American ethos than any other immigrant group. Here are a few you will recognize:

• Belief that no law is above God's law, not even the US Constitution.

• Hyper patriotism. A fighting defence of native land, home and heart, even when it is not actually threatened: ie, Iraq, Panama, Grenada, Somalia, Cuba, Nicaragua, Vietnam, Haiti and dozens more with righteous operations titles such as Enduring Freedom, Restore Hope, and Just Cause.

• A love of guns and tremendous respect for the warrior ideal. Along with this comes a strong sense of fealty and loyalty. Fealty to wartime leaders, whether it be FDR or George Bush.

• Self effacement, humility. We are usually the butt of our own jokes, in an effort not to appear aloof among one another.

• Belief that most things outside our own community and nation are inferior and threatening, that the world is jealous of the American lifestyle.

• Personal pride in equality. No man, however rich or powerful, is better than me.

• Perseverance and belief in hard work. If a man or a family is poor, it is because they did not work hard enough. God rewards those who work hard enough. So does the American system.

• The only free country in the world is the United States, and the only reason we ever go to war is to protect that freedom.

All this has become so deeply instilled as to now be reflexive. It represents many of the worst traits in American culture and a few of the best.

And that has every thinking person here in the US, except perhaps John McCain and Sarah Palin, worried.

Very worried.

[Wilhammer]

I admire McCain but could not, even if I were able to, vote for someone whose credentials are Mayor of a "city" of 8000 people, and Governor of Alaska. At 71 that is what votes for McCain means to me - I am electing Palin.

We have had some rather interesting accidental Presidents who went on to become rather well regarded - and hated too;

Andrew Johnson - mixed bag -

Teddy Roosevelt - obvious

Harry Truman - laughed at and disparaged at the time - considered a great one today.

Gerald Ford - the only President not elected, even as VP.

Some of our most 'qualified' have really sucked.

[dieseltaylor]

You could be right Wilhammer. But has politics become more "political" and cynical now. Are people catapulted to power without the testing period of yore. Has media gloss and manipulation got so powerful that it imedia image rather than any substance that is now predominant.

Truman was 60 when selected and had some decade of experience in politics.

Teddy R was 42 but then the President was only 58 at the time.

Johnson had a tough time to be President after the Civil War - aged 56?

Incidentally here is a good investigation of firing the librarian:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/157986/page/2

still seems bizarre to me what she did as mayor. Do all mayor's carry on like this?

[akd]

Incidentally the idea that you sack your staff as a loyalty test seems very odd to those of us who believe that roles such as librarians are apolitical roles.

Said librarian probably shouldn't have openly supported and campaigned for Palin's opponent in the election if she wanted to be treated as apolitical.

[dieseltaylor]

I am astonished at the view that public servants are not entitled to have a political life. Surely the difference between carrying out a job and supporting someone politically can be seen as two different functions?

It just seems bizarre that because you support someone else you can lose your job. Understandable if your job was overtly political but a librarian??

I suppose if you are not for us you must be against us ..... seems such poor logic... but then librarians can be so powerful. Or possibly this canker of ridding yourself of any office holders who are not your puppets is an important facet of the American democracy.

[Stalins Organ]

Exactly - civil servants need to behave apolitically at WORK....but their private life is still their own.

We have elections coming up here & as a civil servant (more or less) we have our rights and responsibilities quite clearly laid out up to and including standing for office (which i'm not!).

and basically our private life is our own.

If the librarian was using his/her job to campaign for someone then that's another matter entirely....but as I read it that was not the case?