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ctcharger

A question about cover

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Playing Brutal, I was hoping the Russians would have a tougher time than they actually are.  After reading about the battles in Stalingrad, Hue and Fallujah, I was thinking the concrete buildings would be better cover than what they are.  The Russians blast away at the buildings they see... my guys retreat... Russians advance... rinse and repeat...anyone that does fire a shot is immediately taken out...I was able to knock out 15 APCs but still suffered a major defeat.  The tanks are a serious problem with their reactive armor.  Occasionally I get one but it's rare.

How about foxholes?  Are they better than concrete buildings?  How much cover do trees give compared to concrete buildings?

Can you conduct pop up attacks in this game?  Target briefly and then have them duck out of LOS?  move some... move up again to the berm and then target briefly and then back out of LOS?

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1 hour ago, ctcharger said:

Can you conduct pop up attacks in this game?  Target briefly and then have them duck out of LOS?  move some... move up again to the berm and then target briefly and then back out of LOS?

Yep. By creative use of the pause command and stacking orders. Ex: You run your guys up to the crest of a hill, select the end waypoint, issue a pause (in 5 sec increments), issue an area target briefly to where you want them to fire or don't issue any target commands and let them choose when they get there. Draw another way point back the way you came or at least out of enemy LOS/LOF. So it plays out like this: team runs to hill top, stops for 10 seconds, shoots at targets of opportunity, retreats/repositions itself.

 

Mord.

Edited by Mord

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But don't use "Hunt" for moving into position, even though it may seem like the right command (and it did to me at first). Once they spot something they'll stop and dump all their remaining orders, including the pause and the movement command to get out of there after the pause!

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1 hour ago, General Liederkranz said:

But don't use "Hunt" for moving into position, even though it may seem like the right command (and it did to me at first). Once they spot something they'll stop and dump all their remaining orders, including the pause and the movement command to get out of there after the pause!

It might be nice if the Hunt command could be revised in such a way that instead of dumping remaining orders, it would insert a pause as soon as it spots a target, but then continues as soon as the target is neutralized. In practice that might not make a whole lot of difference on most occasions, but in some it might.

Michael

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29 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said:

It might be nice if the Hunt command could be revised in such a way that instead of dumping remaining orders, it would insert a pause as soon as it spots a target, but then continues as soon as the target is neutralized. In practice that might not make a whole lot of difference on most occasions, but in some it might.

Michael

I like that idea for vehicles, but there would be problems when you're using "Hunt" to make infantry advance cautiously and take cover if they're shot at. In that case you probably don't want them to get back up and start walking again in 15 seconds or whatever, since most likely the same MG that stopped them will just open up again.

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Same scenario and it has happened several times now...

ATGM crew has ammo, not suppressed, has LOS to target and no shoot... not at all even after repeated attempts at targeting the tank in their range and LOS...played to a minor defeat which is an improvement I guess.  Made some dumb mistakes though...

Weapon deployed, they shot earlier in the scenario and then lock up

Edited by ctcharger

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Was the ATGM inside a building at all? 

IIRC not all ATGMs can be fired from inside closed structures.

PS - You've gone and done it.....I'm going to have to play it again now!  :P

 

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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In my experience, cover doesn't even really matter that much in these games. It's more about fire superiority. You can attack across wide open ground with zero cover whatsoever as long as you have that fire superiority. And the best cover in the world doesn't matter at all if the enemy has fire superiority and can just sit there blasting away at you without you having an answer to it. If the enemy outmatches you in firepower, then foxholes and trees are not gonna be much better than concrete buildings. I wish foxholes provided better cover in these games but they often don't do very much except against light small arms fire.

When it comes to defending in urban areas, it's often better to not even contest the outskirts. Like you said, anyone who opens fire gets immediately taken out (unless you have a really good keyhole position or something). Have some scouts out front with target arcs so they won't give their positions away, and then pull your troops deeper into the inside of the town where the attackers can't as easily bring their weapons to bear. Have your dudes sit behind buildings rather than inside of them. If enemy infantry tries to storm the building, your guys will fire in through the windows and mow them down as they run through the doorway. If your guys are inside the buildings, they will cluster around the doors and windows and be easy targets. One tank shell or RPG smacking against the wall can blow a whole squad to bits. 

This is all more easily said than done of course. I think I played that scenario but it was a really long time ago and I don't even remember how I did. Now I kinda want to pull myself away from Shock Force 2 for a moment and try that again.

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The ATGM was outside in that first wooded zone east/right of town.  They were "nervous" but otherwise OK.  

Interesting... have guys behind the buildings instead of in them.  I will try that.  I did have them pulled into the interior of town which certainly helped.

If you do fire it up, let me know what works or at least some hints.  Well past the spoiler phase now...  🤕

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another minor defeatx2...arggg....  not going to waste 20 minutes loading these guys up with ammo at the start, they never live long enough to fire that many shots

Tried putting all my ATGMs in one area and zapping everyone all at once, kinda worked, one team was shot up before another team reloaded and knocked them out, after that... one miss and done ...

Edited by ctcharger

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4 hours ago, ctcharger said:

The ATGM was outside in that first wooded zone east/right of town.  They were "nervous" but otherwise OK.

I've had the same thing happen. Tank, spotted, sitting in the wide open and a Konkurs more than a km away staring at him for several minutes without firing.

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57 minutes ago, ctcharger said:

 not going to waste 20 minutes loading these guys up with ammo at the start, they never live long enough to fire that many shots

:D  THAT, made me laugh out loud. :lol:

Something you can do, especially when you're first learning the game is "save".  Load everybody up with ammo (I also many times cross load teams in vehicles) and position troops and vehicles at their starting locations within the setup zones.  Basically do all the administrative stuff in your SOP during setup phase and then SAVE.  If you have to start over (which you may, since you are just learning this simulation) you go back to the setup save.  It would get tedious having to repeat all the administrative stuff over again.   

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18 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

Something you can do, especially when you're first learning the game is "save".

Yup, my first save for each new battle is always 'Battle Name - Setup'.....But you knew that already.  ;)

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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I was thinking about doing that but I am afraid I will get the same AI plan every time, I am guessing now that is not a concern?  

spolier (ish)

Related to firepower advantage comments people have made

My pakfront actually worked but not as well as possible.  This time, I will hit them like before but add in APCs, RPG, and machineguns at the same time.  That way, when the survivors actually try to do something, they will fail in a hail of bullets!!!

Wile Coyote...super genius....😒 (sarcasm)

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From what I've seen in my experiments in design, the AI plan is chosen when you click the Big Red Button, so a preliminary setup save is cool.....But once the Big Red has been clicked, your path is chosen.  ;)

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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52 minutes ago, ctcharger said:

I was thinking about doing that but I am afraid I will get the same AI plan every time, I am guessing now that is not a concern?  

What Sgt.S said.  

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OK cool, I may have to come back to this one, I am getting worse!

Must be something I don't quite get.  

You can sell those ATGMs and APCs to the export market and get something useful like an crate of RPGs or something.

Fought to a draw this time only because I kept most of my APCs away from the action.  Next game, they are all heading to a corner of the map never to be seen.

Edited by ctcharger

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1 hour ago, ctcharger said:

Fought to a draw this time only because I kept most of my APCs away from the action.  Next game, they are all heading to a corner of the map never to be seen.

You've matched me with that result, I've never won as the Ukrainians that I recall.  :unsure:

Maybe there's a message for someone in there somewhere.....Picking fights with Russia is a **** idea.  :lol:

PS - Had similar issues with the BTRs.....IIRC in my last commentary on this battle I considered stripping out all the gear, dismounting the crews and using the vehicles as roadblocks (Unlike the old CM1 games, enemy units can't just bulldoze them aside, sadly IMHO.  :().

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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3 hours ago, ctcharger said:

I was thinking about doing that but I am afraid I will get the same AI plan every time

Yes, you will. I am sorry to say that both @MOS:96B2P and @Sgt.Squarehead have it wrong. When you reload the saved game you are getting the same AI plan every time. When you think about it it makes sense. If your side is getting pre battle intel then the other side's setup has to be done therefore the AI plan must be chosen.

To verify I created a simple scenario with two AI plans for red - one had the T90s coming up the eastern side of the map and the other coming up the western side. I created a save during blue's setup and played the setup 6 times - every time the came up the same side. There is a 1/64 ish chance of that happening :)

When I start the game a fresh each time I see a variety of the two attack plans.

Scenario and save attached...

PlanChoice.zip

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18 minutes ago, IanL said:

When you reload the saved game you are getting the same AI plan every time.

When I start the game a fresh each time I see a variety of the two attack plans.

Okay, good to know.  Thanks for testing that.  +1 

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OK well crap.  I was afraid of that. 

I like the BTR as roadblock idea.  I bet they will get shot up and and still count as losses but a bunch more dudes running around with RPG-22s can make a real difference.  I might try that too.  That just might work!  

Sharing ammo... will troops share ammo NOT in their organization if they share the same building or are close?

 

 

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