Panzer Grenadier Tactics

[General Liederkranz]

No, this is not about halftracks! I've seen those threads.

I'm looking for tips on using plain panzergreandiers (the kind that come in 8-man squads with 2 MG42s and 1 MP40), especially against Russians, in cooperation with tanks. It seems to me that one of the main roles for infantry in an armor-heavy force is to clear out close terrain like woods or buildings so the armor can maneuver around it or, if necessary, through it. Russian tank-riders are great at that because they have the numbers to absorb losses and tons of SMGs for close-in firepower. But PzGds are both relatively fragile, and light on SMGs. The MG42s are best at longer ranges and if one of the gunners goes down, that takes out a big chunk of the squad's firepower. So far I've learned to stay away from close terrain, hose it down with LMGs and tank area fire, and clear it only when absolutely necessary. But it seems to me that PzGds are basically not well suited to what tank-following infantry needs to do. Russian tank-riders' ability to clear patches of woods or clusters of houses seems to give their tanks more tactical flexibilty to use cover and maneuver behind it. Does this just reflect the reality of doctrine (and maybe the reason the Germans armed the Sturmgrenadiers in the Panzer Brigades with MP44s)? Or are there other tips I should learn? 

[MOS:96B2P]

9 hours ago, General Liederkranz said:

<Snip> I'm looking for tips on using plain panzergreandiers (the kind that come in 8-man squads with 2 MG42s and 1 MP40), especially against Russians, in cooperation with tanks. <Snip>

This is a very big topic.  I think you have much of the basics such as not going into woods or built up areas unless there is no good alternative.  I will make a few comments just to help spark the conversation.  

Split your German squads into fire teams.  This is a good SOP for most situations.  There are a few long range situations where keeping a squad combined increases their spotting ability because they are with the squad leader who has the one pair of binoculars.

Try to always have your units in C2.  It is helpful if when the infantry fire teams and tanks can share their spotting information.  An infantry team riding on a tank will horizontally share info with the tank crew.   

German infantry can Pop Smoke.  Soviet infantry cannot. 

I suspect the Soviet Tankodesantbik units may be giving you trouble.  Consider the following.  The Soviet Tankodesantniki units are armed with all SMGs that have a hard coded range limit of 200 meters.  (All SMGs have this hard coded range limit) The German panzergrenadiers have more of a combined arms squad as you noted above with only one SMG.  So a German squad can sit at 205 meters from a Soviet Tankodesantniki platoon and fire on it without risking return fire from that same Soviet platoon (until the distance is closed).  If you are playing a human opponent the human can Area Target his SMGs at the 200 meter mark and many of the bullets will travel past that mark increasing the SMG range and somewhat helping the Soviet situation.  The AI of course is not that clever. 

Generally distance is your friend if you are the Germans.  German Panthers and Tigers on high ground, hull down with frontal armor toward the threat can dominate large areas of many maps.

Take your time and use combined arms to solve the different tactical problems you come across.  Remember what worked & didn't and develop TACSOPs to use in similar situations in the future.    

Edited to correct mistakes pointed out by my friend @General Melchid.  

Edited May 3, 2017 by MOS:96B2P

[General Melchid]

Feel a small correction needed to the above; most soviet artillery of below 122mm in RT can fire smoke.

No soviet armour, other than the SU-76M can fire smoke.

[MOS:96B2P]

16 minutes ago, General Melchid said:

most soviet artillery of below 122mm in RT can fire smoke.

Yes, you are correct.  Thank you. 

 

17 minutes ago, General Melchid said:

No soviet armour, other than the SU-76M can fire smoke.

I was looking at the Pop Smoke order.  But it is true the SU-76M does have two smoke rounds it can fire.  Not sure if I noticed that before.  

[General Melchid]

Yes 2's not a lot but if you have SU-76M's in a fight , you tend to have a lot of them so can put up a semi-useful near-immediate smokescreen for you.

[c3k]

Rule 1. PGr are there to keep the tanks safe.

2. Keep the tanks ~100-300m behind the PGr at all times. Or further. No closer. The PGr are a buffer to absorb and observe and allow the tanks to spot targets.

3. Area fire at everything. Then do it again.

4. Advance only towards terrain that you absolutely need to control/take. Don't poke into something "just because". If it's not a mission critical location, stay away.

5. Only advance with scouts. They will die.

6. Re-saturate with area fire the location from which the fire that killed your scouts originated.

7. Advance a second set of scouts.

8. Repeat until scouts don't die.

9. Move infantry up into that terrain/cover/position, then advance the tanks. (Remember to stay at least 100-300m behind infantry.)

10. Never, never, never, under any circumstances, ever, enter the woods. Don't do it. You've been warned...

[JoMac]

Yes...As most have mentioned, since the Firepower in CM (especially SMG's) is alittle over-modeled you need ranging Area-Fire with your MG's, Armor & Arty to clear Built-up Areas. 

In RL, an average Close-Assault Firefight in a Built-Up Area should last 2-3 minutes with both sides losing a few casualties...However, in CM it's one minute max and double the casualties. 

 

Edited May 3, 2017 by JoMc67

[General Liederkranz]

Thank you, everyone. This is helpful. 

[George MC]

Good topic

Worth checking that armoured panzergrenadier units have a significant amount of organic heavy support weapons.

In CM terms like yourself, I've found that pushing your average 44 panzergrenadier unit into a built up area sans support never really ends well. As others have mentioned when they are assaulting a position they really need heavy support, especially if tackling buildings. I tend to steer well clear of woods - for reasons others have mentioned! The 251/9 SPW are really useful for close support. The crew tend to keep their heads down which means you can bring this up pretty close to pound any enemy held building/location. They don't like ATRs. Close combined arms wins the day.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

To expound a bit on earlier tips, I will throw in the obligatory:

Never send a half squad anywhere a scout hasn't been. 

Never send a squad anywhere a half squad hasn't been.

Never send a platoon anywhere a squad hasn't been.

And, never send a tank into any type of non-open terrain that infantry hasn't crawled all over.

[Ithikial_AU]

I agree pretty much with c3K but will add the following:

• If you are using armored/motorised panzergrenadiers you will likely have a lot of ammo sitting in the halftracks/trucks you can return to during the mission. Don't scared to expend your ammunition a bit more liberally.
• If you are very certain there are no anti-vehicle weaponary, don't be scared to use your halftracks to help lay down extra covering/area fire. Remember the Soviets don't have Bazookas and PIATS, so if you don't spot a tank or AT gun you should alright unless you get far to close. AT Rifles can still hurt but you should get some warning when coming under fire... unlike an on target 76.2mm shell.
• When I need to move into a village / town, I try to keep my panzergrenadiers in a line with one squad heading towards a building each. This increases the number of angles and coverage against enemy positions I make contact with. I may lose a few pixeltruppen but having another 20-30 odd all opening up on the contact from multiple angles will usually take care of the problem pretty quickly. (Scouts are great but sometimes you need firepower).
• Yes Panzergrenadiers up front but ensure the tanks are still in a position to support the infantry.
• Stay out of the woods. The forests belong to the Reds - just accept it.

Praised it many times but if you want some practice using these tactics I suggest trying GeorgeMC's:

http://www.thefewgoodmen.com/tsd3/cm-red-thunder/cm-red-thunder-add-ons-scenarios/der-ring-der-5-panzer-division/

A long one on a nice big map with lots of avenues of approach. You'll have to reorginise your forces a few times to hit multiple objectives. A clip of one my assaults in this scenario, (one of the good ones ):

 

 

[DMS]

Panzergrenadiers are many, (1 regiment for tank battalion, if I am not mistaken) tankodesant are few. (1 company in tank brigade) Also they must have a lot of artillery support, while tankodesant have only mortars. That's why German Panzer units had superiority, not because of Panthers.

So, just tell your opponent not to take more than 1 platoon of SMG gunners per tank company against your tank company + company of panzergrenadiers! And then use numbers.

[MOS:96B2P]

9 hours ago, Ithikial_AU said:

Praised it many times but if you want some practice using these tactics I suggest trying GeorgeMC's:

http://www.thefewgoodmen.com/tsd3/cm-red-thunder/cm-red-thunder-add-ons-scenarios/der-ring-der-5-panzer-division/

A long one on a nice big map with lots of avenues of approach. You'll have to reorginise your forces a few times to hit multiple objectives. A clip of one my assaults in this scenario, (one of the good ones ): 

Great video for an excellent scenario.  I've been playing Der Ring Der 5 Panzer on and off for several weeks now in between PBEM games and RL.  Very long but very well done. 

[General Liederkranz]

Thank you, everyone! GeorgeMC, I've been getting some practice (slowly) playing through your awesome KG von Schroif campaign, and I asked this question as I planned out my moves for Scenario 3. Der Ring is also on my list. 

[George MC]

Thanks @Ithikial_AU and @MOS:96B2P for the feedback about Der Ring Der 5 Panzer. Slightly off tangent but still relevant given we are talking combined arms the C2 links and sharing of information comes into its own in these sorts of scenarios - @MOS:96B2P's thread covering this is well worth a read.

@General Liederkranz He! I did wonder  I have pushed armour into woods before, although with very close infantry support. Soemtimes you have to clear woods/villages to secure vital objectives e.g. bridges etc so you'll be faced with this dilemma. Blasting the heck out of the place with whatever you have before going in with the dismounts would still be my first approach.

I always mind reading a German panzer unit AAR discussing this very subject and their approach before attacking a village was to spend 15 minutes or so plastering the place (from long range) with HE before going on. They thought it was very effective so I have adopted that tactic and have found that it also works in CM.

" So far as the fire effect of tanks is concerned,, it must be said that on the whole far too little firing is done.A strong concentration of fire from more than ten tank guns will work miraclkes, even with tenacious russians. If a batallion in the course of attack sudenly concentrates its fire on a strongly fortified village, and then immediately advances a part of its forces, it can always count with certainty on effecting a penetration-a success without any losses. But again and again one discovers wrong conceptions of what a sudden concentration of fire means. If five tanks fire five rounds each on a target , it is often erroneously called a sudden concentration of fire, whereas for a Panther tank it is nothing but a skirmish. The ammunition expenditure must be in proportion to the strength of the available tank forces. Target points must be given beforehand; there will be no time for adjustments when the firing starts.The gun loaders must work fast enough to attain the same rate of fire as antiaircraft artillery. With such firing methods, Panther tanks are still able to breach the enemy defenses and prepare the way for an attack. On 30 january,in a night attack against Kapolnas-Nyek, which was held by tanks and antitank artillery, the strength of which could not be ascertained in the dark,the batallion fired fifteen rounds from each of twenty tanks against the outskirts of the village.The russians fired and tried to escape across the eastern tip of Lake Valencita with their tanks and antitank guns. At dawn the enemy tanks which had broken through the ice and had been abandoned by their crews were a proof of the effect obtained.
The machinegun is not used enough.The turret machine gun has a devastating effect on massed infantry........ "

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132973

Cheery!

[Duckman]

On 2017-05-02 at 5:28 PM, General Liederkranz said:

But it seems to me that PzGds are basically not well suited to what tank-following infantry needs to do. Russian tank-riders' ability to clear patches of woods or clusters of houses seems to give their tanks more tactical flexibilty to use cover and maneuver behind it. Does this just reflect the reality of doctrine (and maybe the reason the Germans armed the Sturmgrenadiers in the Panzer Brigades with MP44s)? 

The late-war German organization beefed up on infantry firepower, partly to compensate for decreases in manpower. However that seems mostly to have meant more machineguns and mortars. The 1944 panzergrenadier TOE still shows the vast majority of soldiers with rifles, not submachineguns. There may well have been specific reasons for this, like problems with mass-producing German submachine gun designs or an increase in semi-auto rifles, but in any case it left the Russian infantry with a lot more automatic weapons just like you say. Since the Germans recognized the advantage of this early on my guess is cost or the continued delays to the ever-disappointing semi-auto rifles were behind it. Another factor may be that experienced units picked up a lot of unofficial automatic weapons just like Allied ones did. 

As for the Sturmgewehr, the panzer brigades were brand new units which may explain why they got the cool new weapons. Otherwise it seems the Sturmgewehrs may have gone to the infantry in the East since they needed them most, having a lot less firepower than armoured units as a whole. Someone did a pretty cool (if small) study of the combat effectiveness of the StGw by the way:

http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=2549