Villiers-Bocage scenario or map?

[PanzerMiller]

George -- What is the typical range at which the Brits and Canucks get their kills in your simulations? Is it reasonably close to the 900m and 150m, respectively, that the battlefield forensic analyses suggest? And do the Canadian kills occur typically after the Tigers have passed them by, as was suggested in the documentary (if we accept, of course, their conclusion that a Canadian shell drilled Wittmann through the left rear hull and into the engine deck)?

I accept that this desired level of concurrence between the sim and RL may be a little too much to ask for, but as is the case with any simulation exercise, this can lend lots of credibility to the structure of the model.

[George MC]

Typical engagement ranges are around 800m to 900m in CMBN - although in one playtest the Canuks took out a Tiger (shot it in the ass) rolling down RN158 at point blank range i.e. less than 50m!

The question about the Canuks is where exactly they were facing. Rad Walters states they had lines of fire to the south and south east. So I've set them up like that. However they spot and are spotted by the Tigers pretty quickly. If you stuff the Canuk Shermans away and out of site then the Tigers can happily trundle past. The issue I have is that the Canuk Shermans appear to be better placed to engage stuff coming down the RN158 or of to it's west - and they stay out of LOS/LOF of the Tigers. The closer they are to the RN158 the more easily they are spotted by the Tigers and then it's an unequal fight - due to the long LOS at that point.

If the Canuks sit tight, let the Tigers roll past then sneak around so they are firing to the NE then they can get the flank shot but that in RL would put you directly into the LOF of the Bits shooting from the otherside. You can do this in-game with no worries generally about taking friendly fire but would that happen in RL. Also the Canuks LOF to that side is hampered by walls, tress and a farm.

That aside I did have to make some compromises with the map in the CMBN editor as I am constrained by straight or diagonal lines when designing the map so some elements on the CMBN are a little but skewed compared to RL. So I'm a bit loathe to base to many conclusions at to what actually happened in RL compared to what happens on the CMBN battlefield. Still I hope (think) it gives a good flavour of the actual action. Guess though I'll have to wait and see what players think!

[LongLeftFlank]

the Canuks took out a Tiger (shot it in the ass)

LOL! An immortal quote from fellow Nova Scotian, Donald "Oddball" Sutherland, baby! Don't mix up those paint rounds though.

[PanzerMiller]

Typical engagement ranges are around 800m to 900m in CMBN - although in one playtest the Canuks took out a Tiger (shot it in the ass) rolling down RN158 at point blank range i.e. less than 50m!

If the Canuks sit tight, let the Tigers roll past then sneak around so they are firing to the NE then they can get the flank shot but that in RL would put you directly into the LOF of the Bits shooting from the otherside. You can do this in-game with no worries generally about taking friendly fire but would that happen in RL. Also the Canuks LOF to that side is hampered by walls, tress and a farm.

I hear ya. I don't remember hearing anything in the documentary about the Canucks ducking out of cover to take the shot...sounded to me like they just sat there behind the chateau walls, hull-down behind holes knocked through the masonry, and took their shots from around 150m. So at least part of the mystery remains...

I am also intrigued by your discovery that most of the Canadian LOS to the southeast may have been blocked by some farm buildings that were not discussed in the documentary. So maybe they were indeed facing in a more easterly direction, thereby able to take 007 out with a rear flank shot? All speculation, to be sure...

As always, George...keep up the stellar work! Thanks to you and others, I can enjoy these games even more by loading up on historical scenarios.

[Blazing 88's]

If you have not seen this documentary about this battle it is very well done. Suggests the Canadian's bagged him, with field tests of sight lines and such.

Michael Wittmann's Last Battle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RWAM8iZUfQ

Looking very good George MC.

Sorry for quoting myself, however I noticed that the link I have provided in my previous post no longer exists. Here is a link for part 1 of 5 for this great doc:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uCKhIkAgec&feature=relmfu

Parts 2-5 can be found on the Youtube side bar.

[George MC]

LOL! An immortal quote from fellow Nova Scotian, Donald "Oddball" Sutherland, baby! Don't mix up those paint rounds though.

He! You clicked the cultural reference

[snake_eye]

Hi George,

Your scenario interested me a lot since I was reading about the combats having taken place during the offensive toward Falaise.

So, I have come across some documents relating the last combat action of Michael Wittmann 007 Tiger against Saint Aignan.

Today, I travelled once more from Falaise to Caen and had a look at Cintheaux and specially toward Saint Aignan from the thruway, having not the necessary time to stop and take few pictures. I shall do it in the coming weeks. I travel across the stretch from Caen to Argentan, sometimes as much as four times a month. I must confess that if it was not your post I should not have had such a keen interest on that area.

But first here is a Google view of the location of the destroyed Germans tanks that were there till 1948, when they were dismantled and removed. These locations were given by Mr Samson a French farmer from Cintheaux.

A thing that I had seen on a 1944 era 1/25000 map was that the road from Cintheaux toward Caen was slightly higher than the grounds on its right and that the fields sloped down gently toward Saint Aignan. That is a very small slope but sufficient to have the tanks coming from Cintheaux well seen, while the ones being camouflaged around saint Aignan have their hull and turret not shown on the horizon.

That impression was confirmed while driving along the area. But to be frank, I should confirm that by a survey and pictures of the area.

About Wittmann’s last stand:

There were 8 Tigers engaged all from the 3./s.SS PZ Abt 101 since the 2 Kompanie had been engaged around Grimbosq with the panthers of the KG Wünsche and could not make it in time for the counter attack ordered by Kurt Meyer after he had discussed about it with Hans Waldmüller.

The KG Waldmüller attacked on the right of Wittmann’s Tigers and rolled toward “la petite ravine “ a gully running broadly from Cintheaux to Conteville to be hidden from Saint Aignan defenders till they could engaged them hull down.

007 was at the rear on the right side of the road RN 158 at Cintheaux, with 4 others Tigers, Helmut Dollinger’s Tiger 009, Willi Iriohn’s Tiger 314,. Probably kisters’s Tiger 312 and another (the fifth one not named – could it be Otto Blase)

Hans Höflinger and Rolf Von Westernhagen Tigers were on its left side on the other side of the road.

Heurich Tiger, who was not conducting the attack, Wittmann preferring to lead it, since he had yet not seen combat, was on the right side of the road and at the rear of the attacking Tigers (as reported by Höflinger.

Around 12:55 AM, Höflinger Tiger was hit and he bailed out.. He reported having seen Wittmann’s 007 Tiger destroyed as well as Dollinger’s 009, Iriohn’s 314 and kisters’s 312. . Höflinger’s Tiger was found destroyed at the Caen- Falaise road crossroad with the old roman road leading to Cauvicourt. He said in a report , that he was on the left side of the road. His destroyed Tiger however was indicated has being on the right side ?

On the Google view you must be aware that a thruway with two lanes is now located there.

Von Westernhagen and Heurich Tigers were not destroyed. What about the 5th one?

They are mention of the Tiger of Otto Blase while 3./s.SS PZ Abt 101 was moving its tanks on the road at Cintheaux the with no other indication,. Where was its Tiger located?

Dollinger reported that he was the first one to be destroyed. When he bailed out a violent artillery barrage came down around them and all the crew, but one severely wounded and lying on the tank rear deck, took refuge under the tank. The wounded crewman, l’Oberscharführer Schott, was soon helped down but died of his wounds shortly after whilebeing evacuated.

3 Tigers were reported destroyed in the English AAR. All probably should be credited to the trooper Joe Ekins, Gordon’s firefly gunner.

A 4th Tiger was reported abandoned a bit farther at the south west of Cramesnil, after the jalousie path leading to Cramesnil, near the height 117.

H. Debusman a POW SS Rottenführer (he was a combat clerk with the Tiger battalion) said that in 1947 while being salvaging left ammos, he saw 5 Tigers from the II Kompanie (one on the path leading from Gaumesnil to Saint Aignan and the others on the one leading from Cintheaux to Saint Aignan) and 2 PZ IV in that area. The 5th Tiger we mentioned above was from its report located 1500 meters farther north than the 007 tank and there were a full ammo load inside it. He said that he did not see any damage done to the tank

Last but not the least, not all the reports about the last battle of Wittmann are rightly remembered by either side. Farmers (Mr Samson and Mr Varin) from the area, having seen the 007 (dismantled in 1948), have all reported that there were no holes in it, besides a huge one on the rear top deck. A Typhoon dud rocket has been found near the location of that tank and another one in 2010 near Höflinger’s tank emplacement and again near a destroyed PZ IV nearby.

Was Wittmann’s Tiger further disable in the next battle hours by a rocket ?,was he shot by the Shermans or was it a shell that was responsible for its explosion ?

It seems that all these could have happen. However for a rocket attack neither the Germans nor the British have reported at that time an attack.

It looks like all the destroyed Tigers, but Wittmann's one, have been shot on their flank from the right wooded area.

I have not found in my books the exact location of the Firefly, but with a 700 to 800 meters range (indicated as the range when Trooper Ekins fired at 3 Tigers), one can figure out its possible and probable location on Google from the destroyed Tigers location..

The British artillery barrage was tremendous at the time of the counter attack and Kurt Meyer saw the Tigers rolling at speed through it. It was usually a tactical move done by Wittmann.

All these questions should not be an obstacle for a good scenario of yours as usual George.

Your shots are beautiful and the ground is well done from what I could see. If you need more details let me know.

Cheers :cool:

[Sublime]

So are you saying you think the violent artillery barrage KO'd 007 or you think it was a Typhoon?

[Blazing 88's]

Hi George,

Your scenario interested me a lot since I was reading about the combats having taken place during the offensive toward Falaise.

So, I have come across some documents relating the last combat action of Michael Wittmann 007 Tiger against Saint Aignan.

Today, I travelled once more from Falaise to Caen and had a look at Cintheaux and specially toward Saint Aignan from the thruway, having not the necessary time to stop and take few pictures. I shall do it in the coming weeks. I travel across the stretch from Caen to Argentan, sometimes as much as four times a month. I must confess that if it was not your post I should not have had such a keen interest on that area.

But first here is a Google view of the location of the destroyed Germans tanks that were there till 1948, when they were dismantled and removed. These locations were given by Mr Samson a French farmer from Cintheaux.

A thing that I had seen on a 1944 era 1/25000 map was that the road from Cintheaux toward Caen was slightly higher than the grounds on its right and that the fields sloped down gently toward Saint Aignan. That is a very small slope but sufficient to have the tanks coming from Cintheaux well seen, while the ones being camouflaged around saint Aignan have their hull and turret not shown on the horizon.

That impression was confirmed while driving along the area. But to be frank, I should confirm that by a survey and pictures of the area.

About Wittmann’s last stand:

There were 8 Tigers engaged all from the 3./s.SS PZ Abt 101 since the 2 Kompanie had been engaged around Grimbosq with the panthers of the KG Wünsche and could not make it in time for the counter attack ordered by Kurt Meyer after he had discussed about it with Hans Waldmüller.

The KG Waldmüller attacked on the right of Wittmann’s Tigers and rolled toward “la petite ravine “ a gully running broadly from Cintheaux to Conteville to be hidden from Saint Aignan defenders till they could engaged them hull down.

007 was at the rear on the right side of the road RN 158 at Cintheaux, with 4 others Tigers, Helmut Dollinger’s Tiger 009, Willi Iriohn’s Tiger 314,. Probably kisters’s Tiger 312 and another (the fifth one not named – could it be Otto Blase)

Hans Höflinger and Rolf Von Westernhagen Tigers were on its left side on the other side of the road.

Heurich Tiger, who was not conducting the attack, Wittmann preferring to lead it, since he had yet not seen combat, was on the right side of the road and at the rear of the attacking Tigers (as reported by Höflinger.

Around 12:55 AM, Höflinger Tiger was hit and he bailed out.. He reported having seen Wittmann’s 007 Tiger destroyed as well as Dollinger’s 009, Iriohn’s 314 and kisters’s 312. . Höflinger’s Tiger was found destroyed at the Caen- Falaise road crossroad with the old roman road leading to Cauvicourt. He said in a report , that he was on the left side of the road. His destroyed Tiger however was indicated has being on the right side ?

On the Google view you must be aware that a thruway with two lanes is now located there.

Von Westernhagen and Heurich Tigers were not destroyed. What about the 5th one?

They are mention of the Tiger of Otto Blase while 3./s.SS PZ Abt 101 was moving its tanks on the road at Cintheaux the with no other indication,. Where was its Tiger located?

Dollinger reported that he was the first one to be destroyed. When he bailed out a violent artillery barrage came down around them and all the crew, but one severely wounded and lying on the tank rear deck, took refuge under the tank. The wounded crewman, l’Oberscharführer Schott, was soon helped down but died of his wounds shortly after whilebeing evacuated.

3 Tigers were reported destroyed in the English AAR. All probably should be credited to the trooper Joe Ekins, Gordon’s firefly gunner.

A 4th Tiger was reported abandoned a bit farther at the south west of Cramesnil, after the jalousie path leading to Cramesnil, near the height 117.

H. Debusman a POW SS Rottenführer (he was a combat clerk with the Tiger battalion) said that in 1947 while being salvaging left ammos, he saw 5 Tigers from the II Kompanie (one on the path leading from Gaumesnil to Saint Aignan and the others on the one leading from Cintheaux to Saint Aignan) and 2 PZ IV in that area. The 5th Tiger we mentioned above was from its report located 1500 meters farther north than the 007 tank and there were a full ammo load inside it. He said that he did not see any damage done to the tank

Last but not the least, not all the reports about the last battle of Wittmann are rightly remembered by either side. Farmers (Mr Samson and Mr Varin) from the area, having seen the 007 (dismantled in 1948), have all reported that there were no holes in it, besides a huge one on the rear top deck. A Typhoon dud rocket has been found near the location of that tank and another one in 2010 near Höflinger’s tank emplacement and again near a destroyed PZ IV nearby.

Was Wittmann’s Tiger further disable in the next battle hours by a rocket ?,was he shot by the Shermans or was it a shell that was responsible for its explosion ?

It seems that all these could have happen. However for a rocket attack neither the Germans nor the British have reported at that time an attack.

It looks like all the destroyed Tigers, but Wittmann's one, have been shot on their flank from the right wooded area.

I have not found in my books the exact location of the Firefly, but with a 700 to 800 meters range (indicated as the range when Trooper Ekins fired at 3 Tigers), one can figure out its possible and probable location on Google from the destroyed Tigers location..

The British artillery barrage was tremendous at the time of the counter attack and Kurt Meyer saw the Tigers rolling at speed through it. It was usually a tactical move done by Wittmann.

All these questions should not be an obstacle for a good scenario of yours as usual George.

Your shots are beautiful and the ground is well done from what I could see. If you need more details let me know.

Cheers :cool:

If you haven't watched the Canadian biased documentary on Wittmann's Last Battle, I posted a link a couple of posts back... imo it was not a Typhoon rocket that did him in, as described in the documentary. I don't think it was the Brit Firefly either. Wittmann's Tiger was moving hull down because of the "very small slope"/rise that the Brit Firefly had to sight over to see Wittmann's Tiger @ over 900m (mentioned in the doc).

At 143-150m, more than likely a keyholed flank or rear shot, the Canadian's ended the Black Baron's life.

[Sublime]

Id agree, based on the documentary I saw you posted.

if nothing else if you look at the candian's positions, hull down by the broken down wall, so close to the flank/rear of Wittman. Tactically they had way better - 1. Positions 2. Closer Distance 3. Aspect to shoot

Of course its like the Red Baron. Everyone wants credit for getting him...

[snake_eye]

@ Blazzing’88

I shall try to look at the documentary

@Sublime.

I favour the shelling theory rather than the Typhoon, that base on the interpretation of the reports

My interpretation for the time being based on known documents and AAR

I can’t say definitively that a Typhoon rocket hit OO7. No Germans being around Cintheaux have reported a Jabos activity that morning and during the counter attack as well as the allies.

Since the 007 had no visible holes in it specially on the right side, but a huge one on the upper deck, I think that a shell is highly responsible for its destruction.

Remember that Kurt Meyer saw the Tigers roll forward under a tremendous shelling. Wittmann as usual thought that the best way to clear the killing zone was to speed toward the enemy, hence negating the effect of the shelling once they were closing on them.

A shell striking the upper deck could have set a rear internal explosion specifically since the gas tanks were half full. In that case they were known, like in other tanks to favour an explosion if struck.

More, the turret of 007 was primarily seen by Höflinger has being partially raised up the tank deck and slightly tilted to the right. It was later that it blew up and felt on the rear, right side of the tank. The tank had also its tracks broken and resting at its rear. That meant that the tank was fully running when hit. The explosion at the rear broke the tracks links on either side and the tank run out of them and came to a halt.

Höflinger in Von Westerhagen Tiger try to get close to 007, but had to back up due to the enemy fire intensity. Heurich and Dr Rabe try to see if there were survivors, but could not either get close.

The remains now resting at la Cambes cemetery of Wittmann’s and his crew (discovered in 1983, close to the place where was the tank) favour that theory since they were removed of the tank (or were they killed alongside it by a shell ?) . If the tank had been fully blown up, immediately, their remains would have been reduced to the size of a small burnt fire log. That was not the case . Were they killed right off ? and removed shortly after ? I favour the theory that they escaped and died along side of the tank. Their bodies were probably, the next day or days after, buried by POW’s taken by the Brits and clearing the field of the numerous bodies littering it.

Cheers

[PanzerMiller]

I would assume that a direct hit from an artillery shell, even of unknown calibre, on the rear deck would blow the s**t out of the vehicle! This doesn't seem to be the case...we have decent evidence to indicate that the turret was blown off sometime after the initial hit. So the artillery shell theory seems iffy...

[snake_eye]

@PanzerMiller

A shell would not necessarily blow up the turret. It will more probably ignite the fuel tank and trigger a concussion explosion. That is why the turret was out of its ring and tilted to the right as recorded by Höflinger.It is only shortly after (how long ?) that it was blown out of the tank with probably a secondary explosion resulting from the initial hit. Yet, Höflinger did not say that the Tiger was on fire. Nevertheless the turret was thrown on the ground to the rear right back of the tank.

@ Blazzing’88

I have seen the documentary video. It is interesting, but the Sherbrooke reported position quoted below, brings quite a few unanswered questions, yet that report can’t be push aside.

“"A Squadron" of The Sherbrooke Fusiliers Regiment, 2nd Canadian Armoured Brigade, commanded by Major Sydney Radley-Walters, was positioned in the chateau grounds at Gaumesnil. This area, south of Hill 112, is parallel with the Delle de la Roque woods and the location of Joe Ekin’s Firefly. The regiment at this time was made up of several Sherman III and 2 Sherman VC, whose tankers had created firing holes in the property's wall. From this position, based on verbal testimony of the Canadian tankers, they engaged several tanks (including Tigers) and self-propelled guns driving up the main road and across the open ground towards Hill 112”

the picture taken in 1945 of Willi Iriohn’s Tiger 314

It shows a hit penetration on its forward left turret side. Since 314 was on the right of Wittmann’s 007 and almost level with him, the shot came from its left. Could it be from the A squadron, being at the least 150 meters and at the most 200 meters if 50 meters was the gap between 314 and 007 ? were the Sherbrooke really at Gaumesnil's "chateau" and not a farther away ? . Some StuG ambushed the RHLI from Gaumesnil’s quarry and they went to ground 1.5 km from it. Yet the Royal Regt of Canada is mentioned has having reach its objective east of Gaumesnil at dawn, having sustained heavy casualties.

The least that can be said about Wittmann’s last counter attack, is that we can’t be certain of what really happened at the time, since we don’t have clear facts about the way it really happened. Yet, the Jabos attack can surely be left aside once for all. The Sherbrooke option seems highly possible for 314, but what about 007, a shell, or a Sherman shot ?

[George MC]

Incoming! I've just released Wittmann's Demise to the repository.

This CMBN scenario covers the action discussed in this thread.

Background

The small but fierce battle that took place some 50 kilometers south of Caen in the fields and woods between the small Normandy villages of St. Aignan and Cintheaux on August 8, 1944 has become famous for two reasons.

First, it marked the death of Nazi Germany’s most famous tank commander, SS Hauptstürmfuhrer Michael Wittmann, holder of the Knight’s Cross with Oakleaves and Swords. Second, the battle was a pivotal moment in the next to last great British offensive in Normandy, Operation “Totalize.”

Playing The Scenario

First off you will need to patch your game to 2.00 to play this.

This scenario was primarily designed for play as German attacker Vs Allied AI Defender and all third party testing has been done this way..

There is an AI Plan for the German side but the AI does not do attacking as well as a human would. Still it’ll give you some fun – especially if you like KOing Tigers!

If playing against the Allies/Germans there are multiple AI Plans. German AI Plan 1 and Allied AI Plan 1 are the ones that best recreate the actual order and pathway of the attack. You can switch off the other AI Plans in the scenario editor.

Given the force balance it’ll also do for H2H. However, this is a historical scenario and the forces are not balanced.

If you can't wait you can grab a sneak preview at the following dropbox link (as well as the READ ME for the scenario):

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gfdbyg6sk5jznqz/HW-zCDGUpf

[Rastamon]

Wow! George this looks fantastic. Thanks for the hardwork.

[Aragorn2002]

HIGHLY recommended. This is an epic battle.

[George MC]

Cheers guys

[wespe001]

Un ami à créé la carte suivante sur Villers-Bocage. J'ai construit le scénario avec de nombreuses unités. Le scénario est en test, c'est un plaisir de voir évoluer les unités sur une telle carte.

Excusez-moi de ne pas m'exprimer en anglais, j'espère qu'une bonne âme pourra traduire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3A8sABgfoA

[Broadsword56]

Un ami à créé la carte suivante sur Villers-Bocage. J'ai construit le scénario avec de nombreuses unités. Le scénario est en test, c'est un plaisir de voir évoluer les unités sur une telle carte.

Excusez-moi de ne pas m'exprimer en anglais, j'espère qu'une bonne âme pourra traduire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3A8sABgfoA

Translation:

A friend has made the following map for Villers-Bocage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3A8sABgfoA

I made the scenario for it with a large number of units.

It's still in testing, but it's fun to watch the units operate on a map like this.

[wespe001]

Translation:

A friend has made the following map for Villers-Bocage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3A8sABgfoA

I made the scenario for it with a large number of units.

It's still in testing, but it's fun to watch the units operate on a map like this.

thank you

[Blazing 88's]

Good stuff to both of you... big scenario's are awesome.

[Bud Backer]

Un ami à créé la carte suivante sur Villers-Bocage. J'ai construit le scénario avec de nombreuses unités. Le scénario est en test, c'est un plaisir de voir évoluer les unités sur une telle carte.

Excusez-moi de ne pas m'exprimer en anglais, j'espère qu'une bonne âme pourra traduire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3A8sABgfoA

Bienvenue a le forum, Wespe001! C'est merveilleux que vous tentez de participez ici avec nous.

[wespe001]

Bienvenue a le forum, Wespe001! C'est merveilleux que vous tentez de participez ici avec nous.

Merci beaucoup

J'ai connu les cm depuis 10 ans et j'avoue que je suis comblé par le réalisme de ce wargame, je n'avais jamais trouvé mieux auparavant.

J'ai acquis cmbn, cw, cmfi et je compte continuer avec les modules suivants concernant la WW II.

J'ai eu aussi cmsf mais je suis peu intéressé par la guerre moderne

J'ai conçu quelques scénarios et une opération sous cmx1. Avec cmx2 j'ai 1 scénario terminé, j'en conçois un 2ème et j'ai fait une carte sous cmfi, il ne reste plus que les unités à choisir et à planifier la mission.

Les concepteurs ont fait un travail énorme, le réalisme est bien présent, les combats dans Villers-Bocage sont saississants. Mon adversaire est très fort et il à acquis parfaitement toutes les particularités de cmbn.

Je vais me présenter:

J'ai 42 ans, je suis Belge et je vis en France, je suis donc passionné des combat mission depuis que je les ai découvert. Nous sommes plusieurs francophones à partager cette passion sur un site en France.

Nous tâchons de partager cette passion avec d'autres, de faire connaître ce jeu exceptionnel. je suis très heureux d'être parmis vous.

Malheureusement je n'écris pas anglais, mais comme certains d'entre vous parle ma langue, il est facile d'établir un contact.

J'ai posté quelques vidéos sur youtube, j'ai même fait un petit éditorial sur la manipulation de calques concernant les briefings afin d'aider des amis à concevoir des briefings

[Blazing 88's]

Has the Villers Bocage scenario / map ever been released?