Richi

After all the drone videos, some old-fashioned bravery doing things the old-fashioned way
 

Think unsexy thoughts.  Think unsexy thoughts. 
This is exactly what I was looking for…so it is probably just a raid.  Oh, my but if they can achieve operational level breakthrough…

That particular like was to the killing terrorists part of the post. As an Iraq vet I have a deep hatred of terrorists and terrorism. I've seen and experienced first hand the chaos and death they cause.

Also, If I lived within 500meters of this guy, or God forbid in the same building. I would relocate by any means necessary. I don't think he is a safe person to be round ,now, or ever again. The risk of anything from his cell phone exploding to a skyscraper falling on him seem rather high.

It's a bit strange that there's this conflict now without Battlefront making a game about it first.
USA must be in a dilemma now. They're accusing Russia of bad behaviour when they are bombing civilians in Ukraine but they don't seem to do the same when Israel is doing it to the people in Gaza. Or have I missed something because not having watched the latest news?
The claims about Hamas slaughtering babies and more, is that to be taken seriously or is it just as true as the fake claim that Iraqi soldiers were throwing babies out of incubators in Kuwait which triggered the Desert Storm mission, or what it was called?

Nothing moves the tech along like a shooting war.

Nobody can line up like this in Ukraine and live. The fact that the IDF can do it with impunity is why Hamas has bitten off more they can chew. 

Hamas is full of fanatics. No matter what concessions Israel or the West attempts to give them will only allow them to regroup and try all over again. Israel MUST render them completely ineffective in order to put this to rest for at least another decade.
 

Indeed, apart from the logistical challenges of moving such a mass of people in such a short time without (probably) sufficient electricity/fuel/water/food/medicine there are many people in hospitals who would have issues moving even in a fully functioning western country. 
Plus Hamas will probably hinder the movement as they (also) don't care about Palestinian lives
 

Doubling the population of the southern half of Gaza while Israel removes Hamas from the north, possibly followed in a couple weeks? by an evacuation order for the southern half of Gaza so they can remove Hamas from the souther half. So all 2 million people then displace back to the north? To Egypt? Build rafts? 
On top of the blockade, this has the makings of a humanitarian catastrophe.

Dave

Howdy friend.
Your analogy is flawed.  Russia is an aggressor. Israel is not. Israel is besieging a military target that is firing rockets and hiding an army.  Whether the Gazans are human shields or not is on Hamas.   The entirety of Gaza is a weapons free zone for targeting and it will all be legal.  
Hamas broke every rule of war in their attack.  They must all die  
We all feel bad when we have to shoot a rabid dog. But obviously, Israel cannot be expected to live next to baby murderers. War is hell, But it’s much worse if you lose.  We’ve seen this movie before. Don’t awaken your giant of an enemy and fill them with a terrible resolve.
Delenda est Carthago. 
 

"People driven out of those area's were a direct consequence of the war and Germany's behavior".    One might argue the same thing happened in Palestine.  The Jews accepted the UN resolution, the Arabs did not.
"The United Nations resolution sparked conflict between Jewish and Arab groups within Palestine. Fighting began with attacks by irregular bands of Palestinian Arabs attached to local units of the Arab Liberation Army composed of volunteers from Palestine and neighboring Arab countries. These groups launched their attacks against Jewish cities, settlements, and armed forces. The Jewish forces were composed of the Haganah, the underground militia of the Jewish community in Palestine, and two small irregular groups, the Irgun, and LEHI. The goal of the Arabs was initially to block the Partition Resolution and to prevent the establishment of the Jewish state. The Jews, on the other hand, hoped to gain control over the territory allotted to them under the Partition Plan.
After Israel declared its independence on May 14, 1948, the fighting intensified with other Arab forces joining the Palestinian Arabs in attacking territory in the former Palestinian mandate. On the eve of May 14, the Arabs launched an air attack on Tel Aviv, which the Israelis resisted. This action was followed by the invasion of the former Palestinian mandate by Arab armies from Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Egypt. Saudi Arabia sent a formation that fought under the Egyptian command. British trained forces from Transjordan eventually intervened in the conflict, but only in areas that had been designated as part of the Arab state under the United Nations Partition Plan and the corpus separatum of Jerusalem. After tense early fighting, Israeli forces, now under joint command, were able to gain the offensive."  

Going to be more like an anvil actually...
 

Israelis are just going through their master target list for the Gaza strip as fas as they can arm planes.

That went so well for them in 2006 In Lebanon  and 2014  in Gaza  . I am afraid until I see better results from the IDF  - I don't think the IDF really have the ability to go all Stalingrad on Gaza without experiencing massive losses themselves .

It will be (is, already) an unimaginable horror for the families of the missing/kidnapped persons, but the rest of the Israeli's might have the opinion that after a 1000 people being butchered, there can be no more talking with those who executed and organized the attack. Even if it means the death of all the hostages.
Hamas may have created a united and resolute Israel that we haven't seen in decades. I suspect we're gonna find out what an almost fully mobilized Israeli army can achieve when they're in full-revenge mode.
But, alas, things will only escalate from here on. The division between "Israel and The West" and the Arab/Muslim world will only get worse.
Just the huge difference between reactions and emotions on western news (CNN/BBC) and non-western news (Al Jazeera) is shocking. In the West there is horror, disbelief, and condemning of the brutal attack. And mostly empathy for Israel.
But the Arab/muslimworld has a very different outlook. There is a tendency to almost disregard the Hamas-atrocities, because lots of people are absolutely convinced that Israel deserved that. They mention "the West"'s hypocrisy on the Palestinian issue and the horrible way the Israeli's treated the Palestinians for 75 years.
There is an insurmountable difference in beliefs. Whether the Israeli's "destroy" Hamas or not, whether they occupy Gaza or not, whether they give up the illegal settlements and free all Palestinian prisoners or not, it won't bring peace.
It's not a happy conclusion, but it seems to me that it is a neverending horrorstory.
 
 
 

This is what I wrote yesterday (in the wrong placed Israel-thread), but still think it is valid.
 
Hamas just now announced that they will publicly execute one hostage for every next (air?land? both?) attack on Gaza.
I fear that the Israeli army high command and the majority of the cabinet already realize/fear/accept that the hostages will die anyway. (They won't say that out loud, obviously.)
Hamas poked the bear, even gave it a real bloody nose and they probably can hurt the bear even more, but it still is a bear.
Israeli gloves are off, and I fear it's going to be much more bloody murder on both sides.

Anyone noticed cannabis at 0:06 - 0:10?

Nobody knows!
It is a massive grind of men and material (for a 21st century conflict).
The Russian defenses are deep and holding, over all, but there are indications here and there that losses in men and material start to show brittle spots. No breakout or exploitation moves, though because the Russians have decided to plant mines on top of mines for a few hundred square miles.
Also Russians seem to engage in politically motivated "No Step Back" counter assaults in which they continue to reduce their prison population.
Ukrainian losses are unknown, likely horrible, but likely lower than Russian losses, and the UA seems to keep the overall initiative.
Russian war economy is starting to ramp up thanks to happily continued Western exports and Western support for sanction dodgers, as well as Chinese, North Korean and Iranian supplements. But mostly the West has been giving Ukraine equipment in order to get shot at with weapons built from Western materials and components.
Russians are also learning how to better use drones and increase their air support.
Western support for Ukraine meanwhile is dribbling out after Ukraine was given whatever was more or less readily available in depots last year, but except for a minority the people are more interested in forgetting Ukraine as fast as possible for whatever is next on tiktok. But hey, it's only the third genocidal war in Europe over the last hundred years, so it cannot be that serious.

Does it?
Iran has always backed anti-Israel militants, it's like an open secret at this point. And Israel has always mounted clandestine operations to reduce the support for terrorist organisations or the progress of Iranian weapons programs.
There will be no conventional war between these countries because they have no shared border and neither of them has the means to mount a naval invasion of the other. 
The point in time to deal with Iran, weaken BRICS and generally do something good was when the anti-theocratic protests were at their peak in Iran last year. Fund and arm the population, break the Mullah regime. But the West has a) for better or worse lost its Machiavellian ways and b) after Syria no one really wants to dip their foot into pro-democratic rebellions in the Middle East anymore. And Israel alone does not have the means.

Edit: not displaying right: 250 murdered at the music festival, plus hostages.
Hamas is trying to outdo the Russian Army. I simply can't imagine how Israel is going to respond to this.
Edit: How does this NOT lead to a general mideast war?
Edit: AMMO PLANTS, we need to build more ammo plants

This is the real question. Is this just an unfortunately successful spasm of suicidal violence by Hamas, or the start of a much wider war that pulls in players from Turkey, To Egypt To Azerbaijan? We may REALLY regret the last eighteen months of screwing around when we should have been ramping up the production of pretty much every kind of ammo there is like we meant it.

I'm a bit puzzled by the scale of the attack and can't believe that in this day and age preparations for such action were not noticed by Israels intelligence services.

American news media is doing a crap job as usual
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/07/naked-israeli-woman-paraded-jeering-hamas-fighters/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr
Hamas is acting like the Russian Army, but unless I missed something they are not a major nuclear power. They have a very good chance of getting to pay their bill in full.

I was out for a while today, I come back to see hundreds of Israelis dead, plus hostages.  And what will this accomplish for the Palestinians?  More suffering.  Nice binge but the hangover is gonna be deadly.
Starting this thread to get the discussion out of the UKR war thread.