Courage & Fortitude - opinions? (spoilers)

[dakuth]

I am actually currently stopped about 20 turns in or something (A few tanks and a company of infantry have arrived.)

I dropped a few mortars on a section of the minefields I thought I might try probing in the hope of popping a bunch.

I have been slowly, slowly creeping foward... seeing if I can sneak through the minefields. Like other posters, I assumed the "gap" in the minefields was a limitation, or a vagueness and was actually mined. However, my slow creeping through the minefields has not been going all that well. I don't think I could risk marching a company of two of men through there without ruining their morale. So I was just lining up a squad of men to "scout" (read:charge) through the unmarked area to see if it is actually mined. If not, I was going to smoke like hell and attack enmasse "up the guts!"

The whole prospect is pretty daunting though and has prevented me from firing it up. I keep thinking "I should at least do a few turns..." but it feels like work as I sweat over it all. I mostly blame minefields, which I dislike as being nasty, hard to spot, and no real way of removing (realistic I guess) combined with a shattered couple companies of men (mostly thanks to School of Hard Knocks.) I really, really, don't relish going in.... realistic again, I suppose. I've been tempted to simply do some scenarios to take a break, but my OCD prevents me. It's the last mission! I should at least complete it then reward myself with "fun" missions.

I'm kind of glad I read this thread - quite a bit of spoilers, but it is nice to know that I would have been right - that gap actually has no mines, and if I smoke it good and proper I should be able to get to the town itself. From there I think I'll be able to dislodge them - or at least have fun trying. It's those damn mines!!

[DavidFields]

I am actually currently stopped about 20 turns in or something (A few tanks and a company of infantry have arrived.)

I dropped a few mortars on a section of the minefields I thought I might try probing in the hope of popping a bunch.

I have been slowly, slowly creeping foward... seeing if I can sneak through the minefields. Like other posters, I assumed the "gap" in the minefields was a limitation, or a vagueness and was actually mined. However, my slow creeping through the minefields has not been going all that well. I don't think I could risk marching a company of two of men through there without ruining their morale. So I was just lining up a squad of men to "scout" (read:charge) through the unmarked area to see if it is actually mined. If not, I was going to smoke like hell and attack enmasse "up the guts!"

The whole prospect is pretty daunting though and has prevented me from firing it up. I keep thinking "I should at least do a few turns..." but it feels like work as I sweat over it all. I mostly blame minefields, which I dislike as being nasty, hard to spot, and no real way of removing (realistic I guess) combined with a shattered couple companies of men (mostly thanks to School of Hard Knocks.) I really, really, don't relish going in.... realistic again, I suppose. I've been tempted to simply do some scenarios to take a break, but my OCD prevents me. It's the last mission! I should at least complete it then reward myself with "fun" missions.

I'm kind of glad I read this thread - quite a bit of spoilers, but it is nice to know that I would have been right - that gap actually has no mines, and if I smoke it good and proper I should be able to get to the town itself. From there I think I'll be able to dislodge them - or at least have fun trying. It's those damn mines!!

Go Dakuth, Go!

Through the center, blow the bocage!

76 minutes in. Turns out Stugs are not invulnerable--one of my Shermans took one one, mano a mano and won. Closing in on the Cathedral. In a previous post, I said that there was a tactical challenge every 10 meters. Not quite true. They are spaced at 150-200 meter intervals, with bocage and buildings enough to make an isolated action.

Stick with it! Avoid the mines....turns out to be a red herring.

Break into the Town Entrance....and then have fun.

[womble]

'Initial' does not equal 'immediate,'...

Actually, wuth the sight lines available, yes it does. If you can't pre-plan a bombardment you have to be on top of the outskirts to call a mission.

Have you actually played the scenario through?

You also do not need to take everything and kill everyone within the time available.

With the size of the VLs in La Haye, I submit that you do. At 00:00 I had a minor tactical (I think it was) because there were remnants in most of the VLs; most of my points were for having killed enemy units. At -00:01, they surrendered cos I'd killed a few more and I got a total victory. There was no way I could have gotten to where I did without having killed as much as I did. There are no sneaky bypasses of entire positions. So to achieve the ground VCs I would have had to kill enough enemy to get a surrender anyway. And without either the ground VCs or killing lots of Germans I wouldn't have won.

Reading some of your other comments I think that may be partly where you're going off the rails.

What you say next says everything about your preconceptions.

Take Crossroads, for example; so what if there is 100pts for the German forces on the map? Those points are completely irrelevant to what you're trying to do in that mission. You are in France to kill Germans, so you get points for doing that, but killing them or not makes no difference to the outcome of that battle.

Did you even read the several times I've said that I enjoyed playing that little interlude? My problem with the 100VP for the casualties isn't that you shouldn't get points for doing what the army is in Europe to do. I didn't issue a single targeting order in that scenario. My problem is that if you decide to (as is eminently possible) clear the village with your scouts, and then take the 'direct' route, you will, because you've got some VPs and denied the Germans any, go 'cross country' instead. It's just a stupid failure of the scenario to reliably do the job it's meant to do, which is "reflect the player's choice".

[womble]

Look, two of us, at least, made the exact same error in interpretation. I am not saying the briefing needs to be clear--part of my point is that people have different tolerances for the unknown. But if it was supposed to be clear that the center was unmined, it was not. And even if it was, one would assume the Germans would have the open area TRPed and set for ambush.

Absolutely. Given the open nature of the field, it was entirely possible that nobody had been out there with a mine detector, so the briefing was being accurate in saying mines had been discovered and their locations marked on their map, but it did not mention whether it had been determined that there were not any mines in the likely locations.

And if I had engineers earlier, and knew how to mark mines better, that is the route I would have gone.

Even with engineers, I would have eschewed crossing the putative mine belt with tanks; 1.01 wasn't out when I started and they couldn't mark AT mines...

As it was, I restarted, tried to center approach, and encountered no artillery (? from dealing out some damage in earlier scenarios).

You lucky, lucky... There was definitely arty available to my 'opponent'. :-/

...(thankfully, I took out 2 of the Stugs in Bumper Cars...

I killed 3 Stugs in BC (and thought I'd got them all). Pesky AI got replacements (or I hadn't taken them all out) including a Panther!

It is sort of a romp, if one follows the plan. [something in the briefing like: "Really, your Superior insists you stick to the plan]

It is? You almost make me want to go back and see if that would have been the case against whatever AI plan I pulled out the hat... Almost.

(Forget about the right rear VP areas in University)...

That's another reason to win by 'attrition' (i.e. forcing a surrender out of the enemy through morale). If there's a location that can be held indefinitely (or that isn't worth the loss of life involved in taking it) by a few men, if you defeat every other enemy, they'll cave, a lot of the time.

I have to pick my "knife" from all of what I was given (AT guns in University--only reason to have them was to realize not to lose them?)...

I got more use out of those AT guns than out of the TDs in RR. I first thought to rush a couple forward in case the "enemy hasn't been reinforced" was REMF optimism and there might be tanks coming forward to kick I company back across the bridge, but one of the jeeps got nailed by random mortar fire while running the first gun and beares up, so it just stayed there and sniped at the trench line. Quite good point suppression. Very accurate. Probably mightily ahistorical, but a definite "thing learned".

[DavidFields]

Absolutely. Given the open nature of the field, it was entirely possible that nobody had been out there with a mine detector, so the briefing was being accurate in saying mines had been discovered and their locations marked on their map, but it did not mention whether it had been determined that there were not any mines in the likely locations.

Even with engineers, I would have eschewed crossing the putative mine belt with tanks; 1.01 wasn't out when I started and they couldn't mark AT mines...

You lucky, lucky... There was definitely arty available to my 'opponent'. :-/

I killed 3 Stugs in BC (and thought I'd got them all). Pesky AI got replacements (or I hadn't taken them all out) including a Panther!

It is? You almost make me want to go back and see if that would have been the case against whatever AI plan I pulled out the hat... Almost.

That's another reason to win by 'attrition' (i.e. forcing a surrender out of the enemy through morale). If there's a location that can be held indefinitely (or that isn't worth the loss of life involved in taking it) by a few men, if you defeat every other enemy, they'll cave, a lot of the time.

I got more use out of those AT guns than out of the TDs in RR. I first thought to rush a couple forward in case the "enemy hasn't been reinforced" was REMF optimism and there might be tanks coming forward to kick I company back across the bridge, but one of the jeeps got nailed by random mortar fire while running the first gun and beares up, so it just stayed there and sniped at the trench line. Quite good point suppression. Very accurate. Probably mightily ahistorical, but a definite "thing learned".

Very good response, every one.

I had no idea the AT guns would be able to suppress the trenches. IIRC, their ammo was anti-tank, so I thought it was useless. Another reason for me to play University again....sometime.

Ah, the attrition win. An interesting thought. But we have no meters to gauge that? Granted, that is realistic, but with the "reinforcement that is never slated to arrive" trick, even killing everything on the map may not trigger it? I have mixed feelings about this.

Sounds like the last scenario is a Minor Victory, unless one overwhelms the enemy. Many people, I would guess, would not like that, since they could cease-fire at turn 1. But, of course, they would miss the fun of playing--which is sort of the objective.

A Panther.....a Panther.....this is why I like the forum. That gives me something to worry about, a goblin, without providing too many specifics. Indeed, it is not clear if that information will be more likely to allow me to win, or to lose because I will become less daring. Perfect.

[Pssst...tell me....did a larger win on the last scenario give you a bigger Campaign win. Not clear why that should remain a secret.]

[TheVulture]

Very good response, every one.

[Pssst...tell me....did a larger win on the last scenario give you a bigger Campaign win. Not clear why that should remain a secret.]

IIRC I got a total victory on the final mission and a total mission on the campaign as a whole. But then I did keep at Raozrback ridge until I managed a total victory there as well which may have had some bearing on the final result (don't really know how campaign victory levels are determined to be honest).

[phil stanbridge]

I was awarded a draw in RR, and I gained a Major Allied victory overall. I ceasefired half hour in to the final mission. So go figure?

[womble]

I had no idea the AT guns would be able to suppress the trenches. IIRC, their ammo was anti-tank, so I thought it was useless. Another reason for me to play University again....sometime.

It started off as just something to do with an asset stranded in "no man's land". I don't know quite what effect it was having, but it certainly managed to keep an FO's head down in a trench, no bother. I reckon that's fair, though, as I'd certainly keep my head down if 6 pound lumps of metal were hitting the ground round me at supersonic speeds.

Ah, the attrition win. An interesting thought. But we have no meters to gauge that?

the only meter you have is the clock, really. Just keep your troops as safe as you can while finding and killing the enemy. Even if you can't force surrender because of 'late reinforcements', or stubborn resistance it might help improve your score and drive the enemy of VLs you don't know about, decreasing theirs, so long as you can keep your casualties in check.

Sounds like the last scenario is a Minor Victory, unless one overwhelms the enemy. Many people, I would guess, would not like that, since they could cease-fire at turn 1. But, of course, they would miss the fun of playing--which is sort of the objective.

Indeed. Playing is a massive chunk of the fun. There is also satisfaction to be gained by achieving objectives. That satisfaction is thoroughly eroded when those objectives turn out to be trivial and/or meaningless and/or counterproductive to the longer term goal (surrendering on T1 gets you the same or even a better result than you'd get if you fought to a less than total victory, and leaves your forces in a better state to win later scenarios). Edit: People differ in the proportions of their fun that they get from different components. Process-driven enjoy the journey more, whereas goal-driven relish the achievement. Making the achievement irrelevant sucks all the fun out of it for some people. I'm glad I'm process-driven.

A Panther.....a Panther.....this is why I like the forum. That gives me something to worry about, a goblin, without providing too many specifics. Indeed, it is not clear if that information will be more likely to allow me to win, or to lose because I will become less daring. Perfect.

Heh. And there might not even be one there for you. I was convinced there would be another StuG and even thought I knew where it would be. When my house-hopping maneuver got to their stalking jumpoff point: nothing. Still nothing upon viewing the map at game end.

[Pssst...tell me....did a larger win on the last scenario give you a bigger Campaign win. Not clear why that should remain a secret.]

With total victories in Over Hill, School and Bumper Cars, and lesser victories in Crossroads and RR, it made no difference whether I got a total by surrender at -00:01 or a lesser victory by ceasefire at 00:00, it was still a campaign total victory.

[Broken]

Finally played the School of Hard Knocks. Even though I was forewarned about the deadly German arty in this game, I still took 110 casualties and had only one mobile tank left when the Germans finally surrendered (playing on Elite WEGO).

The enemy arty didn't mess up my infantry too much, but it was merciless on my support weapons. I had 4 HMGs, 1 MMG, and 2 81mm mortars obliterated. Hopefully, that doesn't doom me for the rest of the campaign.

I sent two platoons through the swamp on the right side of the bridge and then West along the South bank and then scampered up the West map edge, covered by smoke when necessary. I sent one platoon up the middle, which was a mistake. This platoon lost a squad and accomplished nothing except attract German fire.

The Mark Mines command is a bit sketchy. I marked one AT mine (it turned White), but a tank which moved over it at Slow speed was still immobilized (Boom!). Another tank moved through an unidentified AT minefield with no ill effects. It seems very random.

There are still bugs in the software when bridges are crossed: it is very difficult to place waypoints or even select units when they are near a bridge.

The 1.01 patch foxholes actually protect their occupants from artillery! I spent all my 81mm rounds and a considerable amount of tank 75mm trying to dig out the German infantry, but I had to resort to 105mm to get some of them. And the remaining Germans still put up a fight against my two West flank infantry platoons!

The US gets way too much infantry in this battle. I just left two whole companies hanging out in the backfield to avoid those nasty mortars.

All-in-all a very well designed battle. All those German mortar rounds certainly put the fear of God into you.

[DavidFields]

Broken, to be encouraging: I think if you can get by Ridge, even with your losses in Hard Knocks, you will be able to get a win--unless by not doing University (or if you skip Bumper Cars) the enemy in the last battle is much reinforced. That would be interesting to know. Not sure if by winning School it will be a greater win than if you had not.

[Broken]

Broken, to be encouraging: I think if you can get by Ridge, even with your losses in Hard Knocks, you will be able to get a win--unless by not doing University (or if you skip Bumper Cars) the enemy in the last battle is much reinforced. That would be interesting to know. Not sure if by winning School it will be a greater win than if you had not.

Thanks for the encouragement. I still have half my 105mm ammo left, if that matters, and my infantry losses are only about two squads. It's mainly my heavy weapons platoon that took a beating from the mortars.

It sounds like you really know the decision tree for this campaign! I am currently on Bumper Cars. My hat's off to the beta testers. A very nice job.

[ss11955]

I was awarded a draw in RR, and I gained a Major Allied victory overall. I ceasefired half hour in to the final mission. So go figure?

Over and over i get bashed in this mission---------is the idea to fight through the center of the Ridge OR advance through the left OR right side of the ridge--- to Yoke and Zebra objectives ? GREAT GAME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you. Jim

[TheVulture]

Over and over i get bashed in this mission---------is the idea to fight through the center of the Ridge OR advance through the left OR right side of the ridge--- to Yoke and Zebra objectives ? GREAT GAME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you. Jim

It's whatever you can find that works. Going left turned out to be the best move in my game, but I believe others have had success with different tactics. The only fixed idea is to kill the enemy and capture the objective zones. How you get there is up to you (well, not in this mission; how you get wiped out is up to you instead )

[womble]

Over and over i get bashed in this mission---------is the idea to fight through the center of the Ridge OR advance through the left OR right side of the ridge--- to Yoke and Zebra objectives ? GREAT GAME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you. Jim

It's well worth exploring an attempt at getting some go-forward with whatever platoon (I-3 plus a MMG and bearersfor me) gets 'isolated' at the toolsheds. don't know how many AI plans there are, but some smart positioning can defeat the counterattack from the lane with only one rifle team or a BAR, and there really wasn't much between the toolsheds and the big VLs at the back, in the AI plan I drew.

The most important thing, I think, that you're not told is that you don't get a single replacement bullet issued to your troops between RR and La Haye. Every shell (except maybe the 105s) that you use is gone. Loot those trucks and jeeps!

[Chek]

This is how I imagined war,demanding,difficult,frustrating and highly unpredictable.

Very challenging,very enjoyable campaign.

[DavidFields]

Over and over i get bashed in this mission---------is the idea to fight through the center of the Ridge OR advance through the left OR right side of the ridge--- to Yoke and Zebra objectives ? GREAT GAME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you. Jim

1. If the platoon in the woodshed is intact, potentially one could get to some rear victory locations. Or roll back to the farmhouse (which is what I did) and inflict casualties there.

2. My main force stayed in the middle (and most of it uncommited to the battle) and caused enough casualties , (with the maneuver above) for a draw. As with a number of scenarios in the Campaign, sometimes less is more. If you get through this scenario, I think you will have a victory in the campaign--unless you take massive losses in the last scenario.

I have another thread on this Campaign which if you search will give you more ideas. I don't really think there is a "spoiler" for RR. Even with complete knowledge, it is tough.

[blow56]

Maps good, if a little tight. Briefings are fine. Backgrounds are fine. The battles are the worst I have ever seen bar Number One, which was challenging and actually quite good, though more time would have been nice and a bigger map would have added to it.

After that it descends into the laughable - a river with only one fordable area, at a mined bridge, under the eyes of the enemy on higher ground? No air, insufficient artillery and even that provided has so few round of WP that it is useless? An enemy dug in in numbers, with AT guns and artillery zeroed in on the sole crossing point?

Of course you can win it in the end but the casualties are ludicrously high and the Btn CO would have to be a maniac to pursue it. This is NOT an exercise in trying to recreate some sort of historical warfare, it is an adolescent attempt to make a bad war movie.

From Battle Two onward, the entire thing descends into farce. If I want this sort of experience I will watch Kelly's Heroes.

[JonS]

If you found the first battle challenging, then this campaign really wasn't designed with you in mind.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

First is bad because it is too easy (no casualties on the first attempt) the rest is bad not so much too hard as too limiting to the player. It is by far and away the worst campaign for any CMx2 that I have come across. And that includes Taskforce Thunder/Lightning which persisted in bugging out on me before the end.

I like challenges but not quite as much as I like having fun. The latter the campaign was very clearly not designed to do.

[DavidFields]

Up-date. Data point.

21 minutes left in La Haye and.....I haven't had the heart to make another move in the last 10 days.

Part of the problem is that I now realize how channeled my tanks are. I actually have some of them just about stuck in the backyards of some of the buildings, trying to find a flanking path--to no avail. I am not sure I will ever get any of them in the square where the cathedral is. I see an AT gun to my distant right, but don't have an HQ which can see it to call in artillery at this time. There is still a Stug in the square, flush up against a building--as usual, extremely well-placed units by the scenario designer. Theoretically, I could get an anti-infantry AT unit in the building next to it, if there is a back door. I don't think I can use bazookas in buildings? That hurts.

Maybe I will just clear the "Exit" VL and call it a day--though my units are out of position, since I had planned to push centrally toward the cathedral. As usual with this Campaign, I have to try to calculate if stopping may be better than pushing forward and getting a bunch of causualties.

Typically over the last 10 days, I fire up the Save game, look at it......and then decide to go play some EU3.

Perhaps my finish on La Hoye will go better than expected: 21 turns could be the length of an entire scenario. It is almost pitch black, maybe that will help me Though I would tend to think night battles favor the defender.

In any case, I will post the result, and my final observations in my "C and F good" thread. Right now, though, this seems to be the hot thread, and I am in a bit of a slump.

[sfhand]

I got as far as the first turn of the second battle... there I found a pre-planned arty strike on the road leading to the aforementioned singular bridge. When the game prompts me to waste a turn (two or three turns in this case) to check for gamey "tactics" by the scenario designer it ceases to be enjoyable.

[kulik]

Oh boy, the OP and people that agree with it are making me sad. Thats the sort of scenarios i dislike.

I may end up buying CMBN after all once the features im waiting on are in but i may just skipp that sort of campaign and moving to others or moving straight to multiplayer.

[womble]

Up-date. Data point.

21 minutes left in La Haye and.....I haven't had the heart to make another move in the last 10 days.

I got a bit like that with this one, just a bit earlier, when my infantry were getting chopped up by random bombardments.

Part of the problem is that I now realize how channeled my tanks are.

Yup. Pretty much there's only one possible route into the town for vehicles: down the road.

I am not sure I will ever get any of them in the square where the cathedral is.

I'm pretty sure you're not facing the same defensive setup as I did, so "for what it's worth": you probably don't need to get tanks onto the objective. I only got one single tank down the street with the hedgehogs, and no further, because of flanking threats I'd already identified. Then again, my game ended with a forced surrender, so I didn't need to clear the objectives out.

I see an AT gun to my distant right, but don't have an HQ which can see it to call in artillery at this time.

One of the reasons I got a surrender I think was all the casualties I inflicted on the right flank. Must've killed a good company of troops there, as it was my main effort.

There is still a Stug in the square, flush up against a building--as usual, extremely well-placed units by the scenario designer. Theoretically, I could get an anti-infantry AT unit in the building next to it, if there is a back door. I don't think I can use bazookas in buildings? That hurts.

Don't despair! If there's a back door, there'll be a front door. TDs are easy targets for popping out of front doors and nailing in the engine compartment. You just need to make sure you've got plenty of rifles in the other buildings in the row to suppress any infantry that try and geek your rocketmen before they can finish the StuG. And if you can't arrange those factors, and have any 105mm left, it does for StuGs pretty nicely if you get some accurate rounds in the first couple of sticks. At least it'll make the sucker move... 105 for one and a zook (its round crossed with the panther round that killed them) for the other was how I killed the two armour assets I scored in this scenario.

Perhaps my finish on La Hoye will go better than expected: 21 turns could be the length of an entire scenario.

21 minutes is a long time in CMBN

It is almost pitch black, maybe that will help me Though I would tend to think night battles favor the defender.

I think it helps the moving side more. You don't have to worry about long sightlines as much.

Good luck, and keep plugging away!

[Erwin]

One thing CM teaches one is "never give up." So many times I thought I was losing only to having the situation radically turn around in the last ten minutes.

[DavidFields]

Thanks Wombie.

Part of my mistake here was of the kind I don't like to make: a conceptual tactical error. In specific, the frontage that a Battalion+ should be attacking on.

I shifted all my forces to the left "concentrating them", near the town entrance, then punched a few holes in the bocage. But that meant I was putting a lot of units through a small opening, and which still had constricted frontage once units got through. That delayed movement, and fragmented units. Tanks/trucks had nowhere to go. It has taken me a long time to unjumble them, and they are mostly still at the center left, though on the town side of the bocage.

Give the scenario designer credit: I had 1/314 on my left (or, 1/315...whichever I was not). If I had "stayed in my lane", they likely could have handled the town entrance VL. Meanwhile, the company that went through outskirts could have swept away the picket units in the center, attacking them from the back or flanks, and my main forces could have come down the center, punched a few holes in the bocage, come through in good order in the center, with my companies stretched from the far left of the town entrance across to Outskirts, on the city side of the bocage.

Would have been a nice tactical positition, and appears to be consistent with the scenario design. Of course, for many of us, we like to "break" the scenario, by taking unusual routes. These scenarios seem intensely designed to not allow that--as I am sure the real defenders would have. The feeling of being trapped, and out thought/maneuvered (by defensive positioning of forces), without recourse........not everyone is going to enjoy that. I think in this thread that shows.

So, this scenario has given me a much better idea of the attack frontage of an American infantry battalion--can't run it like company attack.

The psych-out part though, is forcing an attack plan over open terrain (which, as I recall, one was supposed to get through quickly, intimating great danger). After going though a couple of scenarios in this Campaign, I would have had to be drinking whatever Grant drank in the American Civil War to push myself down the center field, even if I believed, which I really did not, that it was unmined.

If I had had two infantry companies, with supporting units, caught out in the open in the middle field, under a sustained artillery barrage............there are times like that when the injuries seem too real to keep "playing".

[Thank goodness I don't actually command troops. And I have tremendous respect for the Courage and Fortitude of those who do.]