A question on scouting

[Thunda]

Hey there - new around these parts but have a few questions if you don't mind :

1 ) How can you scout ahead without being seen? It seems that the "hide" command just causes your guys to bury their head in the dirt and not see a thing. I would have thought concealing terrain would have been more concealing .. for instance, I crawl up behind some Bocage .. yet without Hide, every unit in Normandy can see them and opens up on them. I would have thought Bocage would completely hide your guys (them becoming only visible if they start shooting) - but it seems not.

2) In a similar vein (probably linked to 1) - How do you stop your guys from shooting Normandy up everytime they see a mouse? Again with Scouting - I'd like the scout party I send out to scout - not engage those 3 MG42 nests they've just spotted .. I've tried messing with Target Arc to have them only engage anything thats in a direction they've just come from, for instance, but then they don't Face the way I want them to look and see nothing.

3) A general question about the game and Battlefront - is Battlefront the same Battlefront that makes the tabletop wargame Flames of War? And therefore, Combat Mission = Flames of War = Combat Mission? If so - cool!

Cheers!

[Magpie_Oz]

1/ very hard, rely on the scouts being expendable

2/ Use covered arc commands, set the CA's really short.

3/ No. Pretty sure that is Battlefront Miniatures and nothing to do with these lads

[RockinHarry]

All very hard. Latest tests indicate that "active" (=moving) infantry units can already be spotted way beyond the 300m mark, depending on terrain, probably beyond 500m and more.

Best not to rely on what one thinks of "concealing" terrain, high grass, brush and such and instead use scouting paths well within cover terrain (forest), or behind (depressions, defilade, houses...) and then go "slow" mode with short covered arc to desired vantage points.

If you go under 300m in fairly open terrain, autospotting each other is almost guaranteed.

[womble]

Hey there - new around these parts but have a few questions if you don't mind :

Welcome

1 ) How can you scout ahead without being seen? It seems that the "hide" command just causes your guys to bury their head in the dirt and not see a thing. I would have thought concealing terrain would have been more concealing .. for instance, I crawl up behind some Bocage .. yet without Hide, every unit in Normandy can see them and opens up on them. I would have thought Bocage would completely hide your guys (them becoming only visible if they start shooting) - but it seems not.

Part of this is related to the answer to 2). Hide is a specific order that is only useful in some specific situations. It will make your troops keep their heads down, but it does so to such an extent that their situational awareness is deeply compromised and they won't make very good scouts. Hide is useful for situations like riding out a mortar bmbardment in trenches. It can also add some additional stealthiness to your troops, but its downsides have to be weighted against the upside.

2) In a similar vein (probably linked to 1) - How do you stop your guys from shooting Normandy up everytime they see a mouse? Again with Scouting - I'd like the scout party I send out to scout - not engage those 3 MG42 nests they've just spotted .. I've tried messing with Target Arc to have them only engage anything thats in a direction they've just come from, for instance, but then they don't Face the way I want them to look and see nothing.

The best way to keep them from laying waste to the countryside is probably a circular Target Arc, set very short. You get a circular TA by holding the shift key down while you're drawing the arc. Your troops won't fire at things beyond the range of the arc unless they consider them to be a serious and imminent threat (IME, MG teams under about 150m count, consistently, but I can get within 50m of a rifle squad). This will also help with visibility. At the moment I would hazzard that your troops are getting to the hedgerow, spotting some of the enemy and probably opening fire on them. Which immediately gives away their position, and because they're up for action, makes them vulnerable. IME, a small team set with a very short cover arc remains pretty invisible in a hedgerow for a long time.

I use short arc/slow/hide to get my rifle line up to the hedge without being made by the enemy, then pop them all up at the beginning of a minute with area fire orders to blanket the facing linear obstacle. That way your entire line starts firing at once, rather than one opening up, getting spotted by all the enemy and suppressed just in time for your second squad to spot the enemy shooters, open up and receive the fire of all the enemy that now no longer need to shoot at the first squad. And so on.

[JSB]

Scouting is dangerous, by nature.

Unless you have the possibility to reach a height, remain hidden with a short covered arc in a favorable environment, with binoculars, and providing the enemy wasn't able to conceal properly, I guess you'll have to advance until receiving fire.

It's always a heartbreak to send scouts do their job, but it's necessary.

By combining Hunt & Hide command, your guys will lay down fast, preserving their life expectancy. There also has to be other units watching to locate where the shots come from.

The covered arc must be set before the hunt command applies, otherwise it won't be effective if the unit has to stop prematurely.

[YankeeDog]

There are really two different kinds of scouting you can do in CMBN. The first is basically throwing out bait, and seeing if anything bites -- putting a couple of guys out there, and see if anyone shoots at them. While you have to resign yourself to the prospect of losing your scouts, this is often the only practical option and in any event losing a scout team is better than losing an entire squad. With this kind of scouting stealth can actually be a negative, since your goal is flush out enemy units, and/or figure out whether it's safe to move a larger unit along a certain route.

But sometimes, stealthy "eyes" scouting is possible, too. The goal here is to stealthily get a small unit forward to where it can spot dangerous enemy units like MG and AT Guns. MGs especially can be hard to spot when firing from long range in good cover, pushing a unit forward can help spot them, and then you can bring down mortar fire or whatever to neutralize them. For this type of scouting, you need to find good well-covered route to the forward location. It's time consuming, but using the SLOW order to crawl along defiles is often best -- look for shallow draws, or use the defile that low walls, hedges & bocage can provide. Always finish moves with a HIDE order, THEN un-hide the unit a little later and let them sit for a minute or two, to see if they spot anything (with the tight cover arc still on).

High experience units are also much better at being stealthy. By using the SLOW order, I've actually managed to sneak small Crack teams across short spans of open ground, under observation of the enemy, without them being spotted. Of course, you need some distance to be able to do this -- IIRC, the last time I pulled off this trick, the closest enemy was 300-400m distant.

[Thunda]

I don't have an issue with the dangers of scouting - go blundering around then you deserve everything you get. Its really the bocage that gets me - Theres this big thick huge hedgerow sat upon a huge mound of earth and stone, yet pop your head up (when your lying flat on your stomach) to see through the branches / bushes / leaves and you get a bullet between the eyes from 150 meters - instantly. Nearly.

You can't see through bocage from 5 foot away into an open field - but present the gap between your eyes through the mass of vegatation and you might aswell have a neon sign above your head. Ok, fire your weapon from that spot - no problem - your muzzle flash will give your position away. But just looking into an open field from that mass of vegatation and they see you as easily and quickly as you see them - or so it seems.

This is why I'm asking - I must be doing something wrong as it doesn't make much sense. But I can't figure much more than crawling up to the bocage and not firing.

Think some testing in the scenario editor is needed!

Ohh! Before I go - I just thought - do the small gaps in bocage count as zero or greatly reduced concealment?

[YankeeDog]

If you don't want to be spotted while sitting behind a line of bocage, you want your guys hiding; hiding units behind bocage are almost impossible to to spot from the other side of the bocage except at very close range. Of course, this also means that they won't spot anything, either, but you can't have your cake and eat it too.

When I have a substantial force sitting behind bocage (like a full platoon or something), I generally keep most of my units on hide, and/or one action square off of the actual bocage (where there is no LOS through the bocage at all). Then I sneak a small team (ideally, one with binoculars) at least one action square, and ideally 2-3 squares away from my other units as an OP. Smaller units are less likely to get spotted, but this way, even if my OP does get spotted, it doesn't reveal my entire force.

In my experience, small gaps in bocage are very dangerous to walk across -- units crossing the gap are spotted very easily from a distance and will be taken under fire. However, you can usually crawl (i.e., SLOW) units across a small gap without being spotted. Further, stationary units sitting in the same action square as a small gap will generally deploy intelligently and the individual soldiers will sit behind the bocage on either side of the gap, and not expose themselves by deploying right where the gap is. So as a fighting position, a square with a small gap actually isn't that bad.

[Tarquelne]

Units behind bocage seem pretty stealthy to me. As long as there's not someone within 10 or so meters on the other side, and as long as the unit doesn't fire.

General scouting: Smoke can be useful. Smoke shells from a tank or mortar can temporarily blind the most obvious enemy observation areas, or allow you to place some good cover where you want it.

[Thunda]

Units behind bocage seem pretty stealthy to me. As long as there's not someone within 10 or so meters on the other side, and as long as the unit doesn't fire.

General scouting: Smoke can be useful. Smoke shells from a tank or mortar can temporarily blind the most obvious enemy observation areas, or allow you to place some good cover where you want it.

Yeah, after playing around for a day or so it seems I was maybe moving a little too quick at times .. and in number .. .. me setting the circle target arc has helped too ..

But it still seems like I'm picking my way through a maze at times. One wrong move (or fail to spot a MG nest) - and bang .. the last 2 hours of creeping around is wasted as a squad or platoon gets wasted. Ok, part and parcel of the whole thing I suppose .. but its frustrating.

Another query - can be linked to scouting but its mainly for my MG Teams - is there any way in the game I can see the elevation of the terrain? I'm getting tired of going over a map with a magnifying glass looking for a good place for a base of fire, spotting one that looks great .. getting my MG Teams / Mortars to it .. only to then find they can't see further than the end of their gun. Looks flat to me .. As such, my MG Teams are quickly becoming my most useless assets.

[stikkypixie]

Yeah, after playing around for a day or so it seems I was maybe moving a little too quick at times .. and in number .. .. me setting the circle target arc has helped too ..

But it still seems like I'm picking my way through a maze at times. One wrong move (or fail to spot a MG nest) - and bang .. the last 2 hours of creeping around is wasted as a squad or platoon gets wasted. Ok, part and parcel of the whole thing I suppose .. but its frustrating.

Another query - can be linked to scouting but its mainly for my MG Teams - is there any way in the game I can see the elevation of the terrain? I'm getting tired of going over a map with a magnifying glass looking for a good place for a base of fire, spotting one that looks great .. getting my MG Teams / Mortars to it .. only to then find they can't see further than the end of their gun. Looks flat to me .. As such, my MG Teams are quickly becoming my most useless assets.

One way of checking is highlighting the a waypoint and select the target tool. A target line will be drawn from the unit, but what it actually shows is the LOS from that waypoint. However keep in mind that the target tool does not take the stance of your unit in to account. Prone units will have worse LOS than standing units for example.

[Vanir Ausf B]

However keep in mind that the target tool does not take the stance of your unit in to account. Prone units will have worse LOS than standing units for example.

I haven't tested this with 1.01, but IIRC when checking LOS from a waypoint the targeting tool uses the unit's current stance as reference.

[Thunda]

One way of checking is highlighting the a waypoint and select the target tool. A target line will be drawn from the unit, but what it actually shows is the LOS from that waypoint. However keep in mind that the target tool does not take the stance of your unit in to account. Prone units will have worse LOS than standing units for example.

Ah yeah .. never thought of that! Cheers! Will go an try that now on the scenario I keep getting wasted in ..

[womble]

One way of checking is highlighting the a waypoint and select the target tool. A target line will be drawn from the unit, but what it actually shows is the LOS from that waypoint. However keep in mind that the target tool does not take the stance of your unit in to account. Prone units will have worse LOS than standing units for example.

It's worth bearing in mind that MG teams are somewhat more prone to erroneous reporting of LOF from a waypoint, as the exact spot where the MG ends up is critical to the squad being able to fire, whereas the checking from a waypoint uses the exact centre of the action spot where the waypoint is, sometimes (especially in buildings) leading to the MG not being able to fire from where you had been told it would be able to. You'll get less of this if you use the pre-check, but I'm afraid you can't eliminate it; it's a limitation of the engine.

[Michael Emrys]

Having your scouts remain unspotted is nice, but you also need to give some thought to them surviving being spotted. The way I've done this, and it also works for larger teams as well, is to have them move in short bounds with a break in between. Normally, that means a 20m bound at Quick, followed by a 10 second pause while they catch their breath and check out the neighborhood, then another 20m bound at Quick. Using Quick, they cover ground at a reasonable pace and are also dodging. By constraining each bound to 20m, even if they are spotted, the enemy is not likely to get off an accurate shot before they hit the ground unless they are already close. One additional advantage is that they can move all day at this pace while still maintaining a rested state.

I'm not ready to proclaim that this is the whole answer to the problem as originally stated, but it's how I move troops 99% of the time when they are likely to get shot at during the turn.

Michael

[YankeeDog]

Yeah, after playing around for a day or so it seems I was maybe moving a little too quick at times .. and in number .. .. me setting the circle target arc has helped too ..

One trick that has helped me a lot with scouting in bocage specifically is to plot the Hunt, or Quick or Move order so that the end point is one action square AWAY from the bocage, and then SLOW the final 8m up to the bocage. This dramatically reduces the chances of getting spotted by enemy on the other side of the bocage right away.

But it still seems like I'm picking my way through a maze at times. One wrong move (or fail to spot a MG nest) - and bang .. the last 2 hours of creeping around is wasted as a squad or platoon gets wasted. Ok, part and parcel of the whole thing I suppose .. but its frustrating.

Yeah, this is just the nature of bocage fighting. Very similar to Urban fighting in CMSF, actually, except that in CMSF almost everybody has a fully automatic weapon, which just makes things even deadlier.

If you want a break from picking around hedge mazes, look for scenarios set later, in August. By this point, the U.S. Army had mostly broken out of the bocage, and the terrain was somewhat more open.

[JSB]

Having your scouts remain unspotted is nice, but you also need to give some thought to them surviving being spotted. The way I've done this, and it also works for larger teams as well, is to have them move in short bounds with a break in between. Normally, that means a 20m bound at Quick, followed by a 10 second pause while they catch their breath and check out the neighborhood, then another 20m bound at Quick. Using Quick, they cover ground at a reasonable pace and are also dodging. By constraining each bound to 20m, even if they are spotted, the enemy is not likely to get off an accurate shot before they hit the ground unless they are already close. One additional advantage is that they can move all day at this pace while still maintaining a rested state.

I'm not ready to proclaim that this is the whole answer to the problem as originally stated, but it's how I move troops 99% of the time when they are likely to get shot at during the turn.

Michael

I use nearly the same technique but with very short "hunt" orders between the bounds where the environment provides some more cover so that the whole plan can be cancelled if a threat appears.

[Michael Emrys]

I use nearly the same technique but with very short "hunt" orders between the bounds where the environment provides some more cover so that the whole plan can be cancelled if a threat appears.

I don't use Hunt very often for two reasons. One is it is very slow, so it takes more turns to cover the same amount of ground. Secondly, it tires the troops out very quickly, which means you have to use shorter bounds, which in turn further extends the amount of time it takes to get anywhere.

That said, it can be indispensable in cases where you might be walking into an ambush.

Michael

[RockinHarry]

Another query - can be linked to scouting but its mainly for my MG Teams - is there any way in the game I can see the elevation of the terrain? I'm getting tired of going over a map with a magnifying glass looking for a good place for a base of fire, spotting one that looks great .. getting my MG Teams / Mortars to it .. only to then find they can't see further than the end of their gun. Looks flat to me .. As such, my MG Teams are quickly becoming my most useless assets.

LMG teams? Bit tricky, since they can just shoot (halfway) accurate either when the gunner is laying down or can rest the weapon on something. Just did check for LMG34/42, but not for US BAR gunners yet.

1. Check your intended base of fire action spot by moving the camera there at ground level first. Then rotate cam around from this spot, do some X key magnifying the view and if there isn´t any noticable terrain obstructions towards the area to be covered, move in the LMG team at last.

2. A final "face" command, put exactly on an enemy unit, that could be seen in 1., "might" result in getting the team have a blue targeting line.

The "face" command not just serves as a general face command, it´s also sort of "seek hull down position" or "seek LOF vs particular action spot" command. So it´s important where EXACTLY you click the map after "face"!

Needs some experimentation, but it does not always work though. Best to try in setup phase. Repeatedly clicking exactly the same action spot after "face", oftenly gives different results, due to the random shuffling of individual crew/team members.

The game manual, page 85, gives the nessecary details.

[Sublime]

The "face" command not just serves as a general face command, it´s also sort of "seek hull down position" or "seek LOF vs particular action spot" command. So it´s important where EXACTLY you click the map after "face"!

Im actually glad you posted this. I almost always issue 'face' orders at the end of movement for my troops, and Ive noticed as you said that this helps them line up against walls/windows/hedges/etc.

However I did not know that the EXACT spot you click on is relevant, often I click in just the direction I want them to face, whether a spot 20ft in front of them or 200m in front of them. Interesting though - Im going to try clicking on suspected enemy positions (where Im expecting them to have to fire at)

Also FWIW I've noticed that you often will get erroneous LOS especially from HMG teams when in movement. When they're up and running they can often see things that when theyre down and the MG is setup they cannot fire on.

[RockinHarry]

However I did not know that the EXACT spot you click on is relevant, often I click in just the direction I want them to face, whether a spot 20ft in front of them or 200m in front of them. Interesting though - Im going to try clicking on suspected enemy positions (where Im expecting them to have to fire at)

Also FWIW I've noticed that you often will get erroneous LOS especially from HMG teams when in movement. When they're up and running they can often see things that when theyre down and the MG is setup they cannot fire on.

Yep, that´s from my understanding, reading the game manual and personal experience. But even in the setup game phase, I generally need at least 2-3 attempts with the "face" (clicking exactly same map spot) command, to get the desired blue targeting line. There´s still the random factor of crew member reshuffling each time, which yet might create different results than expected. If previous ground scouting with map camera yields a reasonably good place for a unit to move to, then "chances" are high enough that finally one can shoot at desired places with the blue line.

From the game manual, p. 85, which is not quite that clear about all that. Just generally tells about "facing", but when reading carefully, it hints to the "absolute" nature of the face command:

FACE

"Infantry - issuing a Face command will cause the soldiers of the unit to re-

evaluate the cover provided by the surrounding terrain in relation to the

facing the player has indicated, and, if better cover is available, to move to

that cover. For example, the unit might move around a wall, or house cor-

ner, to face the new direction while maximizing cover against fire coming

from that direction. You can issue a Face Command to a unit in motion as

well. If you do so, then the last waypoint will be automatically highlighted so

the Face Command will apply to that last waypoint, not the current posi-

tion. You are also able to manually select a waypoint (any waypoint, not just

the last one) and issue a Face order from there however.

Note: the Face command is “absolute” to the point you click on

the map, not “relative” to the position of the unit at the

time that you click. An example: You issue a Face com-

mand to a moving unit by clicking on a house in the

distance. When the unit reaches its final waypoint, it

will turn to face the house."

The GM section s/b be more clear or simple about that and I´d wish for the "Face" command to result in a priority for a teams/squads main weapon (MG...) to get a blue line, after any reshuffling of individual crew/team members.