need glasses for the sharpshooters ....

[JG11Preusse]

... because mine seems to be a bit blind

i guess no sharpshooter in this world need much tries to hit a man (also in a unbuttoned tank) who is not moving at a distance of 200-300 meters, but mine shoots out of a window at a tankcommander for example wich looks out of his still standing tank and dont hits him even after 6 tries.

im sure i can hit this target with a normal g3 without a targetting scope.

[GreenAsJade]

You need to understand that all sorts of things can happen in war. Maybe his scope got bent when he dropped his case on the way up the stairs? Maybe the tank crew has poked up a fake cardboard cutout of a tank commander, which your sniper is actually hitting but it's obviously not dying. Maybe he hit the tank-commander's great big medal placed over his heart but under his overcoat?

Personally, I reckon it's the fake cardboard commander, because what real commander remains unbuttoned while 6 shots whizz by???

GaJ

(/satire off)

[LJFHutch]

There's lots of other things to consider though, it's a battlefield and not a clean environment. That's surely an easy shot in controlled conditions, but with your life on the line and explosions all over the place it would be pretty stressful. It's true though, sometimes I think "my god man! Learn to shoot!"

[JG11Preusse]

i tested now in quickbattle. i use 10 sharpshooter teams against a whole bunch of us infantry.

this sharpshooters also are blind at a distance of 43 meters.

"all sorts of things can happen" means what ? he´s aiming at 43 metefrs and didnt hit 5 times for example ... what sort of things happened here ?

i observed all 10 sharpshooter teams to see what happens. all what happens was, that they dhoot, but not sharp and most time they miss , even at still standing targets.

maybe wrong modelled or they modelled it that way to keep something balanced.

i guess the fat marked part will be the reason

[Magpie_Oz]

it is actually quite hard to hit something with a sniper rifle at close range, especially if it is a moving person who is not keen on dying.

How do they go against infantry in the open at about 400 to 600 metres? If they are still ****e at that range I'd be sending them back to Stablack

[Ryujin]

Marksmen/snipers get no accuracy bonus over regular riflemen (I'd assume there is some spotting bonus or such inherent in having the scoped rifle). Experience level makes a huge difference. Some green or conscript guy with a scoped rifle is worse than a veteran guy with a regular rifle. If you can't shoot straight in the first place, throwing a scope on the rifle won't do much.

If you want better accuracy, you'll need to bump up the skill level and get an actually trained marksman, not some guy with a scope. I did a test with a crack sniper, he spotted an enemy HQ and rifle squad advancing towards him at 260m (just the test range I picked, might try it farther sometime), dropped a guy in the squad with the first shot, then the platoon leader with a pretty quick follow up shot. Once they went to ground and eventually tried to return fire it took a lot more shots for him to inflict casualties, but he got them pretty well pinned and started slowly picking them off in the open.

In the few times I ran this, the first shot accuracy on exposed targets was impressive (for CMN at 260m), as was his ability to regularly pick out the platoon leader, usually he was one of the first to get hit (he'd also often hit the MG42 gunner first).

So for best results:

-High experience level

-Not suppressed

-Element of surprise (ideally standing/kneeling targets, not guys hiding)

[Battlefront.com]

We don't purposefully distort the game to "balance" things. That's actually 100% opposite to our philosophy. If the guys aren't shooting as well as you think they should then either your expectations are too high for the specific circumstances or there's something that needs to be corrected. Your example, JG11Preuse, was too vague to make anything out of.

Note that Regular Experience Sniper Teams aren't all that great. Decent, but not consistently in the "one shot, one kill" club. If they were, then what would a Crack Sniper Team do? One shot, five kills?

Steve

[GreenAsJade]

I reckon that's a fair point.

It's easy to think that "sniper" _means_ crack.

And it's perhaps justifiable too: you don't get to be a sniper just by being conscripted do you? I might be wrong, but I had the impression you had to prove yourself first for this "valued" role?

So maybe the real problem is that "regular" snipers simply shouldn't exist.

And maybe the solution is going to work: no-one is going to buy snipers who only hit 1 in 10 So effectively they won't exist.

Now ... if crack snipers don't hit pretty much every time, surely that would be a questionable thing.

GaJ

[Battlefront.com]

In war, with heavy casualties, sometimes an officer visits a unit and asks something like "who is your best shot?" and the LT says "Smith is". Next thing Smith knows, he's the Battalion Sniper because that's the best they can do on short notice.

Since players have the choice of what Experience level to buy something at, they can opt for Conscript Snipers or Crack. The price does, however, indicate that perhaps Conscript isn't going to perform as well

Steve

[Michael Emrys]

Maybe his scope got bent when he dropped his case on the way up the stairs?

Case? What do you think this is, a hunting party in peacetime? Every time I've seen a picture of a sharpshooter, he is either carrying it in his hand or slung over his shoulder, just like the rest of the rifles in his squad. No case in sight.

Michael

[JG11Preusse]

it is actually quite hard to hit something with a sniper rifle at close range, especially if it is a moving person who is not keen on dying.

How do they go against infantry in the open at about 400 to 600 metres? If they are still ****e at that range I'd be sending them back to Stablack

no matter wich distance.... or if elite or regular .. they have aiming problems or broken scopes

[JG11Preusse]

We don't purposefully distort the game to "balance" things. That's actually 100% opposite to our philosophy. If the guys aren't shooting as well as you think they should then either your expectations are too high for the specific circumstances or there's something that needs to be corrected. Your example, JG11Preuse, was too vague to make anything out of.

Note that Regular Experience Sniper Teams aren't all that great. Decent, but not consistently in the "one shot, one kill" club. If they were, then what would a Crack Sniper Team do? One shot, five kills?

Steve

its not my philosophy, it only was an idea to explain why they have aiming problems or whatever.

i tried many quickbattles with many different settings. from elite snipers down to regular ones and it seems that they need several shots to hit something even at still standing targets.

i only can talk about my impressions and i dont write something here only to create confusion or something.

In war, with heavy casualties, sometimes an officer visits a unit and asks something like "who is your best shot?" and the LT says "Smith is". Next thing Smith knows, he's the Battalion Sniper because that's the best they can do on short notice.

Since players have the choice of what Experience level to buy something at, they can opt for Conscript Snipers or Crack. The price does, however, indicate that perhaps Conscript isn't going to perform as well

Steve

yes im sure you are right with this example, but for example im only a pilot and had 3 month time to learn also shooting and im easely can hit man size targets without a scope up to 300 meters.

sure i dont used a k98 with scope, i had to shoot with g3, but im also sure that a k98 with scope will be a good deal to hit safe at distances p to 200 meters or maybe much more.

[Bastables]

its not my philosophy, it only was an idea to explain why they have aiming problems or whatever.

i tried many quickbattles with many different settings. from elite snipers down to regular ones and it seems that they need several shots to hit something even at still standing targets.

i only can talk about my impressions and i dont write something here only to create confusion or something.

yes im sure you are right with this example, but for example im only a pilot and had 3 month time to learn also shooting and im easely can hit man size targets without a scope up to 300 meters.

sure i dont used a k98 with scope, i had to shoot with g3, but im also sure that a k98 with scope will be a good deal to hit safe at distances p to 200 meters or maybe much more.

Look set up a test or send saves that show aberrant behaviour.

Don't bull**** with impressions based on your basic training of hitting the equivalent of fig 11/12 targets at a shooting range.

Look we're all war hero's here every rifle man is expected to score 4 out of 5 at targets at 300metres. Guess what happened when a section shot two Indonesian soldiers across a valley at under 300metres 11 hits from over 200 rounds with several rifle men going to second magazine. There is a world of difference between shooting on the range and when actually in combat. By your reading of training and it's effects on combat the section would have only needed two rounds.

If there is a problem with the game reproduce it and show it to people (the developers). Do not use appeal to authority using your peacetime military service.

[JG11Preusse]

Look set up a test or send saves that show aberrant behaviour.

Don't bull**** with impressions based on your basic training of hitting the equivalent of fig 11/12 targets at a shooting range.

Look we're all war hero's here every rifle man is expected to score 4 out of 5 at targets at 300metres. Guess what happened when a section shot two Indonesian soldiers across a valley at under 300metres 11 hits from over 200 rounds with several rifle men going to second magazine. There is a world of difference between shooting on the range and when actually in combat. By your reading of training and it's effects on combat the section would have only needed two rounds.

If there is a problem with the game reproduce it and show it to people (the developers). Do not use appeal to authority using your peacetime military service.

and im sure you know both .. shooting range and real combat, otherwise you wont share your bull**** knowledges, right ?

did you ever was in a war situation are are you also someone else, who knows everything from reading articles from internet ?

i know about flying a military helicopter at a training area aswell, as in a conflict area, so dont tell me such stupit bull**** things

[siffo998]

actually i remember a thread some time ago that covered the same problem. i even made a test lane with snipers at different ranges shooting at tanks facing from different angles. the result was that no tanker was killed. dont know if it was a bit fixed in 1.01 but back in that thread the explanation was that the snipers aim for the center mass of the tank and therefore were not able to hit the tc...

if you want it to change preusse you need to test it, post the results on the forums and provide saves. you need at least 40 tests with sinpers and tanks all at regular. the best way is to build a test lane scenario with 10 test lanes. each separetes the one from the other so that no test would interfere with the other...

so you can run 10 tests per minute... reload the scerario and run another 10... then when you have got around 40 tests show us the results...

best way... count how many shots were fired...and how many tcs actually were killed in one minute of testing...

[Bastables]

and im sure you know both .. shooting range and real combat, otherwise you wont share your bull**** knowledges, right ?

did you ever was in a war situation are are you also someone else, who knows everything from reading articles from internet ?

i know about flying a military helicopter at a training area aswell, as in a conflict area, so dont tell me such stupit bull**** things

And I was actual infantry in a so called conflict area, hitting targets at 300m on a range is not the same as hitting humans in combat and it sure is not the same as flying a helo.

Show in game proof that the game is broken. your worthless shooting range stories are as pointless as me dwelling on my time in Timor.

[JG11Preusse]

And I was actual infantry in a so called conflict area, hitting targets at 300m on a range is not the same as hitting humans in combat and it sure is not the same as flying a helo.

Show in game proof that the game is broken. your worthless shooting range stories are as pointless as me dwelling on my time in Timor.

sure ... tell me where you where ?

lets share our experiences and maybe you can tell me, why infantry sharpshooters lost all their knowledge about aiming, when in a conflict area ?

did you ever heard that in real situation the senses will get sharpen ? thats for example a reason, why you feel that the rocket needs hours to reach the target and not hit after the usual 40 seconds f.e.

reading what you wrote and also look at the way you wrote it, im sure you are only a senior expert internet soldier. but maybe im wrong and how the life goes, we where at an almost same palce and then we can share much memories

[GreenAsJade]

Instead of bitching back and forth, there is quite a reasonable request here: create a test game, make a save file, so everyone can look at what you are seeing.

(I have to note that I have done this a number of times and sometimes someone took my test files, sometimes no-one did, but never has anyone got back to my about whether it was looked at or not ... it always disappears into the ether. But who knows, you may fare better... at least until you do the right thing and submit a good bug report, you're on the back foot )

GaJ

[Magpie_Oz]

Think you need to calm it down a bit there lads.

I think you will find that rifleman accuracy, regardless of level of training, takes a huge dive once you are on a two way the rifle range. It is a pretty cool head and hands, or psycho, who can stay as calm and shoot as well in combat as on the rifle range.

It is simple logic really. You don't know where the target will appear, or for how long, or what it is, or even if it is the enemy, or if it is about to shoot you, or his mate is about to shoot you, or if your own mate is about to shoot you, or if artillery is about to shoot you, or if you really want to kill someone or .... bugger missed him !

[JG11Preusse]

Instead of bitching back and forth, there is quite a reasonable request here: create a test game, make a save file, so everyone can look at what you are seeing.

(I have to note that I have done this a number of times and sometimes someone took my test files, sometimes no-one did, but never has anyone got back to my about whether it was looked at or not ... it always disappears into the ether. But who knows, you may fare better... at least until you do the right thing and submit a good bug report, you're on the back foot )

GaJ

i did also for a "bridge problem".

i will aso for the other mentioned problems, when im back from asia. will only last 2 weeks.

internet here is horrible ... 5 minutes stable, then disconnects. have to wait further 3-10 minutes and then i can connect again.

im sure they will look at the files with the shown problems. when i sent on e, i also got a feedback

@magpie oz

trained snipers have a special job. the target is to stay unseen and aim at a long or longer distance. thats what they are for and usually hidden soldiers will be able to aim accurate, not only at the shooting range

also helicopter pilots get training in training areas and they normally also dont loose all knowledgees, when doing their job in a realistic area.

yo can find a documentry film about a lynx and an gazelle pilot from uk, while they are dealing with a t-55 in real.

if they would act like "tis guy here" explained, they would have been shot down after some minutes

[siffo998]

here is the link to the thread...

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=98946&highlight=sniper+center+mass

again... best way is to provide a GOOD test...

@GreenAsJade: actually it wont disappear for example the guys who proofed that infantry takes more casualties when standing behind a wall, then infantry that is in the open, provided a good test and it was patched in 1.01.

i for myselfg provided tests regarding the tigers frontal armor and it was also patched in 1.01. it wont disappear into the aether as long as you provide a good test that follows logic and reason.

i think that preusse might hit a good point that should be looked at (at least for the sniper vs. tank tc test)... but we need further testing to prove it.

if a sniper shoots 6 times on a standing tank and doesnt hit the tc than this is strange (i`ve tested the same situation for about 40 times and the sniper never hit the tc...i and the people from the thread back then thought it was a center mass problem and it should be fixed).

but i`ve never experienced any strange sniper behaviour against infantry.

[user38]

JG11Preusse, I think the problem here is that you expect snipers to be able to hit targets. As Steve from Battlefront pointed out, there is nothing special about snipers and in real life snipers were chosen at random. The game models real life. The fact that your snipers can't kill tank commanders is not a bug but a design feature of the game.

[JG11Preusse]

@siffo998

try a quick battle with only inantry at the one side and choose yorself for example 10 siper teams.

so you will have a huge ammount of enemies and try to place 2-3 snipers in a building.

others snipers you will try to set at a position, where they have a good overview over the battlearea from a medium to long range (maybe 250-400 meters).

you can download a pack with 11 qb maps (battlefront.com), which lets you have a tiny open map with a very good chance to test such things.

greetings

andi

JG11Preusse, I think the problem here is that you expect snipers to be able to hit targets. As Steve from Battlefront pointed out, there is nothing special about snipers and in real life snipers were chosen at random. The game models real life. The fact that your snipers can't kill tank commanders is not a bug but a design feature of the game.

i guess its not a feature, because it makes no sence.

siffo´s explanation makes more sence.

all in all i remember that here at this forum it was explained, that it makes sence to shoot at unbottoned tanks, but not at buttoned.

so what could be better to use a sniper to shoot at the commander of the tank, if unbuttoned ?

[Blackcat]

"i tried many quickbattles with many different settings. from elite snipers down to regular ones and it seems that they need several shots to hit something even at still standing targets.

i only can talk about my impressions "

Fair enough, but please accept that other people have different experiences and therefore different impressions.

For example, I have played a couple of PBEMs against Mattias and he loves his high experience snipers. I can assure you that they hit what they aim at, maybe not one shot one kill all the time but as close to it as makes no difference. They are also a bugger to spot. In one game I was losing a steady trickle of men - one sniper had in effect pinned down a couple of platoons behind some low bocage and despite having all those eyes on it still took several minutes before I was able to find where the fire was coming from.

Another example, in the penultimate battle of the Road to Montebourg campaign against the AI two enemy snipers set well back from my line of advance (300 plus yards) caused 75% of my total casualties and I didn't know where the top scorer was until I found and killed him by accident right at the end of the game.

Are snipers ineffective in the game? Nope, not in my experience (at least not when used against me). There may be an issue with accuracy against tank commanders, I have not seen enough to comment one way or another. If I leave my tanks unbuttoned within a couple of hundred yards of the enemy the commanders seem to get shot on a regular basis, but whether from snipers or general infantry I couldn't say.

One thing I will say about the use of snipers and this is carried over from CMSF, they appear to be at their most effective if you sneak them into position and then leave them alone to sort out their own targets. In those situations their spotter/security man seldom opens fire, thus giving away their position, and the number of shots to the number of kills tends towards 1:1.

[JG11Preusse]

"i tried many quickbattles with many different settings. from elite snipers down to regular ones and it seems that they need several shots to hit something even at still standing targets.

i only can talk about my impressions "

Fair enough, but please accept that other people have different experiences and therefore different impressions.

For example, I have played a couple of PBEMs against Mattias and he loves his high experience snipers. I can assure you that they hit what they aim at, maybe not one shot one kill all the time but as close to it as makes no difference. They are also a bugger to spot. In one game I was losing a steady trickle of men - one sniper had in effect pinned down a couple of platoons behind some low bocage and despite having all those eyes on it still took several minutes before I was able to find where the fire was coming from.

Another example, in the penultimate battle of the Road to Montebourg campaign against the AI two enemy snipers set well back from my line of advance (300 plus yards) caused 75% of my total casualties and I didn't know where the top scorer was until I found and killed him by accident right at the end of the game.

Are snipers ineffective in the game? Nope, not in my experience (at least not when used against me). There may be an issue with accuracy against tank commanders, I have not seen enough to comment one way or another. If I leave my tanks unbuttoned within a couple of hundred yards of the enemy the commanders seem to get shot on a regular basis, but whether from snipers or general infantry I couldn't say.

One thing I will say about the use of snipers and this is carried over from CMSF, they appear to be at their most effective if you sneak them into position and then leave them alone to sort out their own targets. In those situations their spotter/security man seldom opens fire, thus giving away their position, and the number of shots to the number of kills tends towards 1:1.

if you accept others experiences, i for sure also will do.

the only thing about what i can write are my experiences and when im back from asia, i will show them with savegames ...... i learned that films are integrated in savegames