Think about it - Maps & Design

[dieseltaylor]

I love maps and I love travel. I love to see scenarios where you really buy the scenery.

I am not the world greatest expert on land use, or the pre-1940's but I thought I would mention that if you desire to make great scenary you have to move your mind to a critical level.

Ali-Baba has done a really nice map - Acropolis- and it has some truly inspired touches - the soccer pitch, the worked out quarry used as an ampitheatre. That is beautiful stuff.

We have exchanged e-mails on a couple of points which are not big but are valid for discussion by my critical eye motto. The rail line has a very nice bridge but being built 100-200 metres inland would have made more sense as no bridge would be required. To the railbuilders the bridge is an expensive option to build and maintain. Its not a biggy and for most people perhaps would go unnoticed. But Ali-Baba wanted a bridge : ) And I say why not - a designer should be free to do what they want.

However if you are going to try for realism as your ultimate goal then looking at each item and say does this make sense is a good practice.

I know you can have multi-storey buildings, up to 8 levels. Think carefully as to how common were tall buildings pre-1940. Pictures of bombed cities do show taller buildings but 8 stories would be extremely rare outside a major city centre. Four stories would be fine for most tall buildings in a biggish town. Why do you get taller buildings in towns? Because land is expensive, where there is lots of land people would build a town outwards at lower level as it is cheaper.

Another thought harking back to CM*1 days is that try to think of scale - I remember an old map where apparently the natives felt substantial bridges a 100 metres apart was a likely thing to happen in the midst of the countryside over a smallish river. It may have been done for play balance but it was also jarringly unlikely.

Anyway that is my little piece on realistic terrain. If you are curious if your finalised map rouses any thoughts in me feel free to contact me through clicking on my name and sending a message for my e-mail address.

Of course you have an absolute right to design what you want, and you may know physical features I do not, so I am not at all dogmatic as to what is right and wrong. I only suggest : )

[RockinHarry]

Usually I strive for that extra "realism" that make maps looking more "natural", with regard to wildernesses AND those parts of terrain that are civilized. Though the example below is part of a yet unfinished CMBB scenario, I also apply it to CMN, which offers even more possibilities that demand exploitation.

The 2.5 x 3 km map shown below, was created by letting the auto map generator create the general lay of the land (shallow elevations) and then took this as a base for further editing. All terrain elements were erased with clear/grass, with just the auto generated slopes left. I then analyzed the map for putting wildernesses and cultivated areas, in sort of a "god creation mode", which although quite time consuming a process, it was also the most creative and fun at last. Switching back between 2D editor and 3D mode, I checked every map spot for natural looks and made small corrections if neccessary. Oftently raising/lowering a single tile by 1m made a difference.

I also made extensive use of diagonal terrain layouts (villages, roads, fields...), as this offers not just extra interesting tile/object placements, it also helps to get away from unnatural looking square looks.

Contours were also enhanced by particular terrain element placements.

Mochowoe as seen from SW. Battlefields need a bit of fires burning, as well as same damage and craters, which also help to disguise the enemies foxhole positions.

If I can´t quite get the look & FX I want, I do mod it. In this case sandy soft ground, for placement along rivers, in Balkas (small eroded gorges), ect.

The CMX1 railroad tile always bit of offended me, so I fleshed it out with double RR spur, exactly covering the underlying terrain types (bits of open and path). The RR bridge also is a combination of land and water bridge, as oftenly even small rivers, have wide banks with soft or dry ground, that needs to be bridged as well.

Forests in central to southern russia are seldomly of single tree type, so I bridged the gap between high pine and forest with a "mixed" type mod, that includes both, high pines and high deciduous trees with some underbrush in a single tile. Actually just two deciduous tree types replace existing pine trees, so the look at last depends on existing pine trees (original or modded).

Although the examples is CMX1, all of that (and more) can be applied to CMN as well. Exploring CMN map making capabilities is great fun alone and the potential to create gorgeous looking maps can´t be underestimated.

Hopefully, fire & smoke effects will be added to CMN and its modules later, so map/scenario making results will lead to even more immersion.

[RockinHarry]

Now some special treatment for natural looking CMN pine forests in western europe, late summer, early autumn.

I found that density of 1-2 trees a tile, is mostly just enough for natural looking pine forests (which are mostly cultivated forests anyway in europe) and also helps with game frame rates, if forests get larger. Tree type "Tree E" is only evergreen tree in CMN, as it seems.

Ground tiles used is a mix of "light forest" and "dirt", with occasional other ones. "Light forest" (and "Heavy forest") in CMN is actually best suited for non pine tree forests, so I use it rather in conjunction with dirt, which brownish looks match better to pine forest grounds. Pine forests are usually more dark and shadowy (dependent on density off course), so there´s usually little light for much underbrush to grow.

Unfortunately, CMN provides some partly unnatural ambient lighting and shading, but I figured that particular weather and time of day settings help, to get the overall looks more or less right. Setting below is "overcast", 10 hours.

While it all might sound more like "science" than "fun", I figured the results to be worth the efforts and time investments.

[RockinHarry]

(Western-) european 1930-40ies central city buildings are usually 3-4 stories high for residential areas, with higher story buildings usually beeing administrative, commercial and (absent in CMN) industrial buildings.

The screeny below shows a mix of independent (commercial) and modular 3-4 story buildings. Textures have been matched with neighboring buildings, by use of SHIFT-CLICK and door/window frames with ALT-CLICK. The rubbled building in the foreground is a modular building, leveled with ALT-SHIFT-CLICK and put on a tile, 4 meters higher than the surroundings. Additional rubble has been placed with Flavor objects #1 / Junk / 4-5-6 and shifted around (SHIFT+LEFT CLICK), as well as rotated (LEFT CLICK) where needed.

Ground tiles is a mix of Ground #1 / Cobblestone and Gravel. Cobblestone IMO looks a bit too "clean", so I prefer using it under buildings, with the gravel beeing the layer for Paved 1 roads.

Ground #1 "Rocky" was used as layer for the rubbled buildings and "Hard" for the bomb crater in the middle of the street, as well as backyard areas, in order to not let grass spill over from neighboring tiles.

Various flavor objects have been used (Street lamp, junk, drum) to enhance certain areas.

This is just an "experimental" city block that I use for prototyping western european, war torn, dirty cities in late 1944. Making larger city sections this style, will be very challenging and time consuming, as well as getting frame rates dropped though.

[RockinHarry]

Same perspective from the map editors preview mode. The junk in the bomb crater is yet floating in the air, but this gets "fixed" automatically by the game, between unit setup phase and first action turn. There´s yet other final ground mesh adaptions / object fixations for certain game objects, including houses, trenches, bunkers..., that can´t be previewed in the map editor, but can be seen in their final states when playing the game.

and seen from opposite direction

[Broadsword56]

Priceless tips -- thank you everyone. We need to keep more threads like this going because there hasn't been much posted on mapping lately. It's a very deep topic, and the tips shared benefit both the mappers and the users who play the results.

My only tip for realistic maps is to map a real place. Use the combination of Google Earth, topographical maps, aerial photos, and historical AARs as sources. The bocage, in particular, has a crazy-quilt nature to the pattern of its fields and hedgerows that I could never dream up on my own.

[RockinHarry]

A nice feature in Units / Purchase units section, is the ability to also place vehicles in "destroyed" or "burning" state onto the map. You can set this before or after purchase in "Vehicle Status" drop down menu. Also works for shelters/bunkers.

The destroyed Opel below is given randomly created states, meaning it sometimes shows with co driver door open, sometimes shut and same goes for the rear deck flap. Didn´t test other destroyed vehicle state configurations yet.

Placement of destroyed/burning stuff in buildings is possible IF the building is placed AFTER placement of the killed vehicle, BUT it appears to crash the game once a particular scenario is tried to be started. So no recommend to try something like that.

I also figured, that nudging/rotating flavor objects, as well as editing buildings, is possible in Units / Deploy... mode. So I was able to create the following composition:

Since burning objects provide a light source, it´s also interesting to use these for night time battles, even if CMN night setting is anything but really dark.

[Erwin]

RockinHarry... you are doing some of the best looking maps I have seen so far. I hope you'll have em done and on the Repository soon. I especially like the attempts to do larger scenarios and in other theaters like Eastern.

Wish we had a vehicle modder as talented as you as the armor in CMBN looks a bit toylike. The vehicle mods so far include a really good looking Kubelwagon, jeep and truck. The German recon vehicles and Marder mods are so-so.

[Sgt Schultz]

Very nice RockinH. The devil is in the details for sure. I have pruned evergreens back from newly-constructed vinyards, and replaced with other trees, to reduce acidity in the soil.

If it 'feels' real to me, I try to include it. My maps may not match Europe, but they should look natural.

-

[dieseltaylor]

The Land Where Flight Began

I am confused is that France, China or the UK? : )

Pine forests tend to monoculture because the pine needle carpet prevents other species from growing, its not just a light thing. There is also root warfare for example:

Walnuts and their relatives exude a chemical called juglone that suppresses the growth of other plants. It is present in all parts of walnut trees but is most concentrated in the roots. It is thought that juglone suppresses plant respiration, causing distorted or stunted growth, even plant death.

Fascinating stuff.

Beautiful street scene RockinHarry. I had no idea how complex the modelling side could be. And the range of trees ... wonderful.

[BloodyBucket]

Any good sources for aerial photos from the 1940s? I'm interested in the Sourdeval -Percy-Gathemo-St. Sever Calvados region.

[Broadsword56]

Any good sources for aerial photos from the 1940s? I'm interested in the Sourdeval -Percy-Gathemo-St. Sever Calvados region.

This is the one a lot of us have been using -- you can find detailed instructions on how to find and download the 1947 aerial photos of your selected area elsewhere on the forums -- look for the mapping threads.

http://www.geoportail.fr/5069711/visu2D/afficher-en-2d.htm?cg=djoxLjEqYzptZXRyb3BvbGUqY3Y6MS4wKnZ2OjEuMSp4eTotMS41NjM4ODE0ODUwMzU5OTg3fDQ5LjI5NTYzNTEwMDM0MTQxKnM6OSpwdjoxLjAqcDpkZWNvdXZlcnRlKmw6UGhvdG98fHwsU2NhbnwxfHw%3D

[ClarkWGriswold]

That looks amazingly good. Very realistic and gritty. Details like burning vehicles and flavor objects really make the map, especially when they look naturally placed, as they do in your picture.

[Chris Ferrous]

Rockin Harry

Absolutely brilliant stuff. Really useful.

One thing I noticed though: I believe in your 'modular buildings' block fronted by the rubble and bomb crater, I can see internal windows and doors. Now if these buildings were connected internally the doors should match up inside, but it's rare to find internal windows.

I've been trying to 'go inside' all my co-joined buildings and switch off inappropriate doors and windows etc., but it really isn't easy, and it's definitely time consuming.

Do you know of a quick way of sorting out all windows to a blank wall, or do we have to rotate through the selections by clicking?

The reason I mention this isn't so much cosmetic, it's because I'm sure I read somewhere in the forum that internal windows could lead to buggy LOS and LOF.

Great work though.

[MikeyD]

The CM beta guys have learned to love Google Earth. We started getting into it around the CMSF Brit module. Even if you're doing an entirely fictional map its a good idea to flirst do a street-view tour of the general area, see how broad the fields are, how hight the hills, how close the buildings. One of my scenarios I did bass-ackwards. I did a fictional map, then flew around Google Earth to find a similar looking area, then looked up the local town's combat history to find approtiate units involved. It turned out my 'fictional' scenario was dated just two days shy of being a 'semi-historical' scenario.

[MikeyD]

About butting building walls with internal windows. Yes it is tedious in the extreme to cycle through interior walls until you get an open facade or just one door, then do the same for all the butting walls on the map too. I have grey hairs from putting myself though the effort. But it pays dividends bigtime during gameplay. Remember the purpose of building maps is to fight battles on them and its precisely detail like that that makes all the difference in the world.

[Erwin]

Any ETA for the Repository?

[RockinHarry]

Rockin Harry

Absolutely brilliant stuff. Really useful.

One thing I noticed though: I believe in your 'modular buildings' block fronted by the rubble and bomb crater, I can see internal windows and doors. Now if these buildings were connected internally the doors should match up inside, but it's rare to find internal windows.

I've been trying to 'go inside' all my co-joined buildings and switch off inappropriate doors and windows etc., but it really isn't easy, and it's definitely time consuming.

Do you know of a quick way of sorting out all windows to a blank wall, or do we have to rotate through the selections by clicking?

The reason I mention this isn't so much cosmetic, it's because I'm sure I read somewhere in the forum that internal windows could lead to buggy LOS and LOF.

Great work though.

Yes, true. I had a focus on outer appearance of gritty looking city streets for this exemplary building block. There´s yet few adjoining buildings, which have the inner walls correct, but I´ll do that in next step, when testing AI and general unit behavior. Good next topic for this thread!

Yes, as you mention, cycling through is the only way, but if you reach blown wall, next is no wall and then comes wall/no windows. Takes 9 to 14 fast clicks to get there.

Another issue is mixing adjoining independent and modular buildings, since you can´t change wall layout of independent buildings, just their textures.

Balconies are generally way oversized, so I´d possibly avoid them. Placing buildings with balconies half an action spot back, might give a better visual result. About to test all this later.

Btw,...this so far is all "prototype" testing and if things all look and work right, I´ve plans to work on full scenario and map, with probable Brest or Aachen setting. Brest also had half of german troops non paratroopers, so it should be ok for a CMN scenario. Aachen would be outside CMN time frame though. We´ll see.

[RockinHarry]

Wished the 3D preview in editor saves last cam position (always restores to 0,0). I now "preview" particular map changes in Units/Deploy...mode, with at least 1 onmap unit present. It´s one click more, but at last saves considerable time, as one does not need to scroll all over the map again and again to reach the last viewed map spot.

[Erwin]

This is all stunningly amazing work!

[JSB]

Wished the 3D preview in editor saves last cam position (always restores to 0,0). I now "preview" particular map changes in Units/Deploy...mode, with at least 1 onmap unit present. It´s one click more, but at last saves considerable time, as one does not need to scroll all over the map again and again to reach the last viewed map spot.

+1

I can't see any utility in starting from the corner of the map.

[MikeyD]

Wished the 3D preview in editor saves last cam position

Some have learned th trick of going in through the unit editor. 'Deploy Allies' even if there's no allies on the map, will take you to the last camera position, and you can still move flavor objects and click buildings.

[RockinHarry]

Some have learned th trick of going in through the unit editor. 'Deploy Allies' even if there's no allies on the map, will take you to the last camera position, and you can still move flavor objects and click buildings.

Yes, that´s what I figured lately. Thanks for the tip re not needing any units onmap for the cam position stick and work. Seems the 3D map preview is as good as useless.

[JonS]

Do you know of a quick way of sorting out all windows to a blank wall, or do we have to rotate through the selections by clicking?

CTRL+SHIFT+click (I think ... or it be ALT+SHIFT+click?) changes all floors of a building to the same door/window configuration. That way, at least, you only have to scroll through the sequence once for each wall of multi-story buildings.

[JonS]

... probable Brest or Aachen setting. Brest also had half of german troops non paratroopers, so it should be ok for a CMN scenario. Aachen would be outside CMN time frame though. We´ll see.

Cherbourg?