Uses of some units and cookie-counter issues

[Erwin]

While it's realistic to have HQ support units and XO units, what is their actual purpose that one can use them for in the game? (I know XO takes over if the HQ dies, but what do you do with them in the meanwhile or what about a "support" unit?)

This is one of those items that I think CM1 correctly abstracted. In both the CM1 and CM2 series there is no real use for these units and I wonder if it would have helped with the clutter to not feature them in the same way that the games don't have medics/corpsmen (which actually would have been much more "useful" units as a significant part of the game is running around saving one's WIA - probably the best innovation of CM2 imo).

The other issue that I am surprised about is that in both CMSF and CMBN units tend to feel more cookie counter/similar in size, ammo supply etc. This seems like a step backwards from CM1 in which it felt that one could have widely differing unit characteristics in terms of heads as well as their ammo. I read a lot how WW2 units would scrounge around and pick up lots of non-TOE weapons as time went by. Is the cookie-counter in the game feel a limitation of the editor?

[Vanir Ausf B]

In both the CM1 and CM2 series there is no real use for these units and I wonder if it would have helped with the clutter to not feature them in the same way that the games don't have medics/corpsmen (which actually would have been much more "useful" units as a significant part of the game is running around saving one's WIA - probably the best innovation of CM2 imo).

Use the support units/XOs as roving medics.

[YankeeDog]

I think a lot of what you're seeing there is the shorter time period and more limited choice of formations that the base CMBN game offers as compared to CMBO.

Once the modules for CMBN are out, there will be a lot more choices in terms of TOE -- Various Brit units, SS units, Fallshirm, etc. And these new formations will bring different weapons loadouts in the squads.

But neither CMBN nor CMBO really gives the option for scenario designers to control ad-hoc armament, such as squads carrying non-TOE weapons, etc. In some cases, the TOE shown in both games is an educated guess as to what was actually carried by units in the field, rather than the "by the book" TOE. This is especially true for German units which often never reached their TOE allotment. For example, theoretically in 1944 each Grenadier Rifle Company was supposed to have something like 19 G43 semi-auto rifles in its TOE. But companies were lucky to get half this many, if they had any at all. So, in CMBO and CMBN, you occasionally see a G43 here and there, but you don't see 19 per Company.

But because of the longer time period covered, CMBO did offer more changes to TOE, both official and practical, that happened as the war progressed -- for example, late-war U.S. rifle squads in CMBO carry an extra BAR, which reflects the historical fact that U.S. rifle platoons began carrying more BARs later in the war. Since CMBN only covers about a three month period (and another month or two more once the Market Garden module comes out), we won't see as many changes like this in the game. So you'll have to wait for the Battle of the Bulge game if you want to play with late-war U.S. infantry squads and Volkssturm in the CMx2 engine.

As far as what you can do in the CMBN scenario editor, just like in CMBO, you can reduce the headcount of a unit in CMBN to reflect casualties prior to the start of the scenario. CMBN allows the scenario designer to control unit ammo supply, as well as equipment quality settings. The equipment quality setting will change what weapons you see in infantry squads, to a degree -- better equipped units get more cool stuff, basically.

If you want to get really tricky, CMBN also gives the option of choosing small infantry teams, such as BAR teams, breach teams, and scout teams, and then attaching these teams to a platoon. Using this functionality in combination with the option to change the starting headcount of units, you can actually change the loadout and organization of platoons substantially, if you so choose.

In summary, for the formations and time period represented, I actually think CMBN offers more flexibility and options with TOE and OOB than CMBO did. CMBN is also far more detailed and authentic as far as which soldiers in what units carried certain weaponry. However, since CMBO offers many more types of formations, and covered a much longer time period, the sum total of TOE and OOB options in CMBO is greater, especially when compared to the base CMBN game, without any modules.

Cheers,

YD

[Vinnart]

In CMSF the XO was my follow medic team too. In CMBN they are more usefull from what I have observed. Now they actually take over command if the commander dies which is what they are supposed to do. They can also be another spotter for arty, or command some teams if their HQ is out of command with them like the company commander can.

I think CMBN has made steps in the right direction to making XO's more useful. Wish they could patch this into CMSF.

[Erwin]

"XO's can... command some teams if their HQ is out of command with them like the company commander can."

Ok thanks... That IS a useful function.

Without the old CM1 style lines displaying C2 I didn't realize that XO's and Co CO's could command sub units like in CM1(!). (An example of retrograde design imo - since the C2 lines were fast to understand and intuitive.)

Recon units especially seem to get out of C2 very quickly if you use em for wide-ranging patrols, so getting an XO or Co CO to command some of them will be very useful.

[Oddball_E8]

It would be kinda cool if some of the german units had a PPsH-41 here and there (especially since they already have the model for it from the afghanistan game) since they did make use of the weapon on a large scale.

[GonzoAttacker]

In CMBO you could control ammo load down to 1 clip or no smoke, no ap etc.As a scenario designer I would like this function, CMBN load is controlled by vague language.

[winkelried]

If you want to get really tricky, CMBN also gives the option of choosing small infantry teams, such as BAR teams, breach teams, and scout teams, and then attaching these teams to a platoon. Using this functionality in combination with the option to change the starting headcount of units, you can actually change the loadout and organization of platoons substantially, if you so choose.

This is a function I really appreciate. I work on a scenario where the Panzer Aufklärungs Abteilung has a completely non-standard TO&E. Easily done in CMBN - and you can even reflect the C2.:

1. Coy is Spähwagen (but 222s)

2. Coy runs on 250/x

3. Coy runs on 251/x (use 251s and add scout teams etc)

5. Coy is Weapons on 251/x

Same for a Panzergrenadier Batallion (gepanzert), where the 3. Coy is understrength on 251/1s and 3rd platoon runs on trucks. In contrast to CMx1 the trucks are organic to 3rd platoon and not hanging somewhere in the void. Same for a Panzergrenadier Batallion (motorisiert) where you can attach Kübelwagen and trucks.

Cool. :cool:

[YankeeDog]

It would be kinda cool if some of the german units had a PPsH-41 here and there (especially since they already have the model for it from the afghanistan game) since they did make use of the weapon on a large scale.

Did the PPsH make it to the ETO in any numbers? I'm asking; I don't know... German units on the East Front certainly did appropriate them in substantial numbers, but I've never seen any photos of or information about them in Normandy. But I suppose it's possible that some of the units recently transferred from the East Front to Normandy might have had a measurable number of them. Certainly would have complicated logistics as it would not be a common caliber of ammunition in the West.

I would eventually like to see more of the hodgepodge of weaponry that some of the German second-line units in Normandy were equipped with, including small arms. IIRC, there were some units in Normandy using captured french MGs and the like. Perhaps in the final "odds and sods" module we'll see some stuff like this.

[womble]

It would be kinda cool if some of the german units had a PPsH-41 here and there (especially since they already have the model for it from the afghanistan game) since they did make use of the weapon on a large scale.

I gathered from other threads hereabouts that the reuse of smallarms was generally concentrated into specific formations, for ease of logistics (even if they were rechambered for 9mm, which ISTR was the case), rather than scattered willy-nilly across a theatre of operations.

[Pak40]

XO's don't typically have the radios which makes their role as artillery spotters limited to onboard mortars that are close by.

Does anyone know if the CO unit dies, can the XO pickup the radio through buddy aid?