dpabrams Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 OK, I give. How the heck do you get the crew to fire the M2? I realize the M2 is mounted at the rear of the turret but I noted that there is no "target light" command on the M10. Obviously I had the M10 "open" during play but not once did I observe the crew fire the thing. Any ideas? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 It is only for AA fire and cannot really be fired thru the front arc or at ground targets in normal circumstances, Audie Murphy not with standing 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stingray Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 No, it can be used to shoot ground targets. I just played a scenario with an M10. A Greman trooper came dashing out of a house behind the M10... without orders from me; a crew used the rear 50 cal and shot him down. I was amazed and replayed the action 3 times. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 It is only for AA fire and cannot really be fired thru the front arc or at ground targets in normal circumstances, Audie Murphy not with standing Actually, you mean "Audie Murphy standing"...on top of the TD's engine deck, where he could fire the .50 from. And exposed his derriere to enemy fire in the process. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Actually, you mean "Audie Murphy standing"...on top of the TD's engine deck, where he could fire the .50 from. And exposed his derriere to enemy fire in the process. hence my desire to be "not with" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 hence my desire to be "not with" We are on the same, albeit warped, track, no question... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 No, it can be used to shoot ground targets. I just played a scenario with an M10. A Greman trooper came dashing out of a house behind the M10... without orders from me; a crew used the rear 50 cal and shot him down. I was amazed and replayed the action 3 times. Sorry I mean not at ground targets in the front arc. There is a long thread sometime ago about this and it touches on the prospect of reversing a TD into a pos to be able to use the 50cal and the ensuing confusion for the crew to be ordered to engage a target by facing away from it etc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 M10 .50 cal placement is atrocious. Crews in-theatre found them practically useless unless somebody wanted to climb onto the engine deck and stand there fully exposed. I think the in-game M10 used to have a 'target light' command but they dropped it because it was insane to have the tank turn tail towards the enemy to use the mg. So the .50 cal was relegated to AI-controlled rear apect self defense, sort'a like the late Panther roof self-defense mortar. Ah well, the Army brass really hated when soldiers tried using their TDs at tanks. They really don't make very good tanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Yep, the .50's placement is optimized for its use in the AA role, in which of course seldom got used. It reflects the army's very convoluted internal politics regarding the role and duties of TD's. At one time the army actually converted some SP TD battalions (albeit with obsolescent 75mm HT's) to towed 3" gun configuration. Of course the latter were proven to be only fractionally as effective as the fully SP units with M10's, but such is the state of doctrinal dogfighting in the wartime army. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddball_E8 Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 im surprised none of the troops "just" moved the mounting to the front (shouldnt be that hard with a welding tool) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Bergman Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Lots of photos of M10s with an extra 0.30cal mounted on the front roof area. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 ...reversing a TD into a pos to be able to use the 50cal... Not really necessary. Since the .50 was mounted on the turret, all that was necessary was to point the turret towards the rear. Getting your pixel tankers to fire it might take some doing if it lacks a target light command though. Also, it would be embarrassing if you needed to fire the cannon through the frontal arc. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 The M10's design was as a no-compromise AT weapon. It did not even have a coaxial MG nor a bow MG, such was the determination by McNair and other army leaders that it not be anything other than a dedicated tank killer. They did not envision its use in general support of the infantry and thought of TD employment like swarms of AT weapons held at the Corps/Army/GHQ level to be unleashed on the enemy armor when the enemy's main thrust was identified. The AA .50 was a concession that, at the time it was designed, the Allies did not yet have air superiority over anticipated battlefields. Like the TD men of yore, CM:N players get to discover for themselves all the neat shortcomings deliberately designed into weapons conceived to fill slots in an unproven doctrine. Battlefield experience has a way of deflating such grand schemes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 all that was necessary was to point the turret towards the rear. Don't forget M10's got no turret drive. I'ts quicker just to turn the whole damned vehicle. I don't think units were big on 'retrofitting' their tanks at this stage in the war. Patton especially wanted all the big white stars in place, the officers wearing ties, and the vehicles to factory spec. 5-6 months later they'll be flame-cutting entire bows off wrecked Sherman and welding them onto surviving vehicles to double the armor. And adding makeshift M10 roof armor. And repositioned .50 cal pintle mounts. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Don't forget M10's got no turret drive. I wasn't forgetting. I alluded to it in my comment about how embarrassing it might be if you needed to use the cannon. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 They perfected a power drive for the M10 in late 1943 but by then production had been pretty much completed and retrofitting the ones in the field was apparently never considered a priority. Recall that it was supposed to be a long-distance killer, where slow but accurate manual traverse was seen as an advantage. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Not really necessary. As previously mentioned the 50 cal seems only to fire if enemy infantry moves behind the vehicle, therefore if you reverse it in all of the enemy will be behind and hence fall prey to the 50........ maybe. I'm guessing that if you drive it into a pos frontways and give it a covered arc to the rear the turret will just traverse back to the front if enemy appear. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RookieCAF Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 I try to use my TD's as movable AT Guns. Putting them anywhere that is the least bit exposed seems to end badly 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Its conversations like this one that leave me flabbergasted but then I have to remind myself that, for many if not most, it is only a game and the M10's in it are just another toy to shove around and go "bang, bang" with. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 I try to use my TD's as movable AT Guns. Putting them anywhere that is the least bit exposed seems to end badly I think that is how they are meant to be used. Tell me is a manual traverse all that much slower than a power one? I remember one German Vehicle, might be a Tiger, where the hand traverse was actually faster than a motorised one. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Here's an example of how the army wanted them used: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/FM/PDFs/FM18-20.PDF 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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