Bug with US HMG Teams?

[Peach Operations]

Hi all,

I've run into this intermittent bug with .30cal US HMG teams, where the gunner can't get LOS through a hedgerow when the team is lined up on one side of the hedge. What appears to happen is that the team has five members, and the four non-gunner members line up along the hedge in a tile, leaving the gunner to be positioned a half-meter or so away from the hedge. Once the gun is deployed, the team has no LOS to the opposite side (according to the Target command), although I *think* I've seen individual team members shooting rifles through the hedge.

When this happens, it will happen repeatedly -- move the gun to one part of the hedge, deploy, can't get LOS to the other side, move again, deploy, can't get LOS to the other side, etc. However, when I load a saved game that was saved around the time that this was happening, I can't reproduce the problem. I'm guessing that reloading the game fixes whatever got messed up.

Has anyone else encountered this?

[Fetchez la Vache]

I see the same problem. I have the impression it's only with high bocage. However I haven't found re-loading saved games helps in anyway. Weird thing is that on several Road to Montbourge maps I simply could not get US HMG teams to get LOS through high bocage. But I'm currently playing a map where it's no longer a problem. The end result is that I no longer trust my HMG crews to get LOS through bocage now, which is a shame.

[Michael Emrys]

Hmmm. I would have supposed that the reason is that HMGs (and MMGs too) have to be on a tripod set on fairly level ground and won't work from the side of a berm. This would mean setting up a little distance in back of the berm and unable to see over it. But reloading a saved file shouldn't effect that.

I wonder if the same problem occurs if the MG is in a prepared position. In which case a flat spot could be dug into the side of the berm.

Michael

[zukkov]

i have seen this as well with uneven ground. in the scenario i'm playing there's a railroad on elevated ground. all the members of the team are high enough on the rise to see over it and get los. but the mg is in the back with no los. i had to move the mg team to the railroad action spot to get los for the mg itself.

[warrenpeace]

I too can confirm this "bug".

Steve, please chime in if this is a "bug" or intended.

[PLM2]

I know what he's talking about and its not because you can't see through the hedge because another unit occupied the same tile and could see through. Also the MG itself occupied the same tile before it was disrupted earlier and moved, i know because its a very small area of hedge with only 2 or 3 tiles which became very important

[womble]

There are definitely problems with the LOS/LOF of the primary weapon of MG teams. Happens a lot in buildings too. Often, backing away from the hedge and re-approaching it will work (I've been lucky so far, and that's always fixed the issue), but I can see that it sometimes just won't. Face commands ought to sort this sort of thing out, but I haven't had much luck in that department.

[Blackcat]

The face command has always sorted out these issues for me. Whether it makes a difference or not I don't know, but I always order face then deploy weapon on the last waypoint.

I have never had a problem setting up an MG in a building either, but others say they have. Perhaps I have just never played the same maps, I dunno.

[lookeylou]

Yup face bnd or the delete key fixed Los issues in buildings for me. Sometimes they be faced on an angle or the wrong way or still acting on old orders

[Major SNAFU]

This might explain an issue I saw last night.

I had troops that could not get LOS, I saved the game for other reasons, and when I re-loaded it later they did has LOS to the area I had checked before.

I also saw an instance where an OPFOR LMG has LOS to a location. I know because when I moved a platoon move through it they go hit. But they did not have LOS back to the location of the LMG that what hitting them. I reloaded this because I wanted to see if the platoon could make it through with a faster movement order without getting hit. At the same time, I placed a move way point from another platoon onto the location of the LMG, selected the way point and then discovered that there was no LOS from that position to the place where the platoon was previously hit.

If the OPFOR LMG had been in a prepared position, because it was behind a bocage, that could explain why it had LOS and a new unit moving to that location would not.

But my question is, I would expect that part of the deploy weapon command would include preparing the ground, etc. for the weapon to operate properly. Add to the setup time if it is uneven ground of the edge or bocage, but i should still be possible, right?

[Blackcat]

Ok, I am not wholly sure I am with you on this. However, I have had many experiences of using the target tool to check LOS from behind a bocage hedgerow and been told that to the points I am interested in there will be no LOS. Now, when I have moved my unit to that point and had them set-up they did have a LOS.

I don't fully understand why that happens but I suspect it is down to relative heights (don't some units by default always finish their movement in the prone position) and the effect of the face command (units will take up the best cover possible that enables them to fire in the direction given).

So, I suspect that the deploy command when used after the face command does enable your MG team to get out their entrenching tools and get a level bi/tripod position - fast work but not impossible.

[SteveP]

FWIW, an authoritative study of the bocage fighting classified the US HMGs as one of the direct fire weapons that could not be effectively used when attempting to fire thru the bocage (largely because the Germans would see the US attempting to open up enough of the bocage to permit deploying and firing, and react accordingly). However, I don't think CMBN attempts to restrict any large caliber direct fire weapons in that way. IMHO, this is one of the reasons why fighting in the bocage is easier in the game than it was IRL.

[Blackcat]

FWIW, an authoritative study of the bocage fighting classified the US HMGs as one of the direct fire weapons that could not be effectively used when attempting to fire thru the bocage (largely because the Germans would see the US attempting to open up enough of the bocage to permit deploying and firing, and react accordingly). However, I don't think CMBN attempts to restrict any large caliber direct fire weapons in that way. IMHO, this is one of the reasons why fighting in the bocage is easier in the game than it was IRL.

I am not aware of any evidence that US water-cooled HMGS are in the game any more powerful or effective that their light, air-cooled counterparts. In fact there appears to be no difference between the properties of the two weapons. Therefore, I strongly doubt that bocage fighting is made any easier by their, occasional, presence

[SteveP]

I am not aware of any evidence that US water-cooled HMGS are in the game any more powerful or effective that their light, air-cooled counterparts. In fact there appears to be no difference between the properties of the two weapons. Therefore, I strongly doubt that bocage fighting is made any easier by their, occasional, presence

Not sure if this addresses your point, but I believe the study was referring to anything larger than a BAR. As a general rule, until the US figured out how to get tanks into/thru the bocage, they had no way of providing effective direct overwatch/suppression fire from their side of the bocage field. Instead they had to push all their infantry units, including MGs, into the field and fight from there. In CMBN we have lots of options for direct fire overwatch, including non-rhino tanks, and more effective indirect fire as well.

[Blackcat]

Not sure if this addresses your point, but I believe the study was referring to anything larger than a BAR. As a general rule, until the US figured out how to get tanks into/thru the bocage, they had no way of providing effective direct overwatch/suppression fire from their side of the bocage field. Instead they had to push all their infantry units, including MGs, into the field and fight from there. In CMBN we have lots of options for direct fire overwatch, including non-rhino tanks, and more effective indirect fire as well.

Point taken. Now, I understand you more fully, I think your original point was correct.