0 for 9 debacle

[Cymru]

I set up an all armor ME. I had 8 PzIV, 1 StgIII (and strangely three FOs with no offboard artillery). I took a chance and ran them to just below the crest of a hill associated with the victory location, and waited for the enemy to appear. After a few minutes three of my tanks are dead, with no sign of any enemy armor. Replaying simply shows shells coming from straight ahead, but no sign of any enemy tanks! In the next two minutes several Shermans come over the top of the hill and take out all of my remaining machines. Although they were traveling at speed they scored first time, every time; while my guys who were stationary and had arcs of fire that provided at least two potential shots at each Sherman never scored a single hit. In fact half never even fired before being destroyed.

My FOs apparently were picnicking at the time and played no role in the process.

[winkelried]

Never put all eggs in the same basket said some guy a while ago.

[Cymru]

Never put all eggs in the same basket said some guy a while ago.

Well, they certainly turned out to be equally fragile.

[gunnergoz]

Remember that the victory locations are magnets for the AI troops and if they are heading there, they will find your troops deployed nearby.

Best to flank ambush the approach routes to the victory point than to protect the victory point itself...you can always "claim" that at the very end with whatever you have handy.

Keep your troops entirely out of sight until the enemy comes into their kill zone, i.e. behind trees, buildings, etc. That way the enemy has no idea they are there until you open fire.

[Pak40]

That's F'd up - getting 3 FOs and no artillery. As for the uncanny 1 shot on the move accuracy it seems that there's some debate going on about that in another thread.

[gunnergoz]

That's F'd up - getting 3 FOs and no artillery. As for the uncanny 1 shot on the move accuracy it seems that there's some debate going on about that in another thread.

Yes, those issues are being debated in depth elsewhere in other threads, which is why I purposefully ignored them and pointed out what IMHO the player needs to be doing tactically to help him have a good game in spite of the minor glitches that are still being worked out. Bugs are temporary, but bad tactical thinking is forever.

[Renaud]

"Bugs are temporary, but bad tactical thinking is forever."

That almost gives me a reason to have a sig...almost!

[Cymru]

Remember that the victory locations are magnets for the AI troops and if they are heading there, they will find your troops deployed nearby.

Best to flank ambush the approach routes to the victory point than to protect the victory point itself...you can always "claim" that at the very end with whatever you have handy.

Keep your troops entirely out of sight until the enemy comes into their kill zone, i.e. behind trees, buildings, etc. That way the enemy has no idea they are there until you open fire.

Unfortunately there were no trees or buildings in the scenario: being on the reverse slope seemed like the only option. My units were only spotted as the enemy came over the hill: I had assumed that I would generally get first shot since I was essentially in an ambush mode

[gunnergoz]

Unfortunately there were no trees or buildings in the scenario: being on the reverse slope seemed like the only option. My units were only spotted as the enemy came over the hill: I had assumed that I would generally get first shot since I was essentially in an ambush mode

Yep, you got bit by the "assume" bug. I know, I have the bite scars too.

My advice still holds, just try it sometimes where you are not located "at the end of the bowling alley" where the enemy AI is sure to find you, but rather lining the sides of the alley to intercept the enemy as he rolls towards the objective. That way you get a chance at juicy flank shots. If your terrain is not helpful to that strategy, you got screwed with a battlefield that favors the enemy, which does happen and which real generals try to avoid like the plague if they are clever about it.

[ClarkWGriswold]

Unfortunately there were no trees or buildings in the scenario: being on the reverse slope seemed like the only option. My units were only spotted as the enemy came over the hill: I had assumed that I would generally get first shot since I was essentially in an ambush mode

That would sure seem like a safe assumption, since your vehicles are stationary and the enemy is moving. Additionally, if you were on a reverse slope you were likely hull down when they came into view. Seems very strange that you didn't get off the first shots. If it weren't for the uncanny ability of CMBN tanks to fire on the move, things would have probably turned out a lot differently.

[MikeyD]

What's that old saying, probably from an old 1970s movie- Some days you eat the bear, other days the bear eats you.

[gunnergoz]

What's that old saying, probably from an old 1970s movie- Some days you eat the bear, other days the bear eats you.

Yes, which is why it is not a good idea to sit down for a picnic where the bear sh!ts in the woods.

[dieseltaylor]

Is it possible that some of your tanks at least were relying on the commander being able to see the SHermans whilst the tank gun is unable to see the Shermans. They fire at the cupola! and of course hit whilst moving.

Tactically I think you did nothing wrong at all and Gunnergoz is actually suggesting gamey tactics against a dumb AI. I am all in favour of flanking but I assume you chose the best position available. Incidentally if you gave the map number then someone could replicate the battle.

[MikeyD]

I seem to recall a military analyist - I can't recall where or when I heard this - say that sometimes you can do everything right and it still doesn't make a difference. 2 1/2 hours past my bedtime. This game's going to be the death of me.

[gunnergoz]

Is it possible that some of your tanks at least were relying on the commander being able to see the SHermans whilst the tank gun is unable to see the Shermans. They fire at the cupola! and of course hit whilst moving.

Tactically I think you did nothing wrong at all and Gunnergoz is actually suggesting gamey tactics against a dumb AI. I am all in favour of flanking but I assume you chose the best position available. Incidentally if you gave the map number then someone could replicate the battle.

So you prefer he learn how to beat the AI in an ahistorical way, all bunched up around the victory objective? What is he going to do when he plays you or another human? If he tries that with them, he'll get eaten alive.

And what is "gamey" about using real-world tactics against the AI? I thought that was what making the game so sophisticated, was all about. Sure the AI is only the AI, but is there not more satisfaction in beating it using realistic tactics than in just lumping your assets around the objective? In thinking about ways to ambush an enemy by learning to read the ground, figure out probable approach routes, etc?

I say: Learn, historically correct tactics now, not ones that play to the AI's weaknesses or the game's shortcomings. The game may have clobbered him because of its own present imperfect state and I'd hope he learns the right lesson from all this, lessons he can apply to multiplayer if he ever goes there.

[Cymru]

Well, I will chalk it up to mix of bad luck and having to learn subtler tactics. My only previous experience was CMBO and the difference between it and this version is like going from chequers to chess. The learning curve is much steeper and longer, but the result is far more rewarding (when I get it right). If I had to learn one really different approach, I would say it is caution. In CMBO you could often get away with tactics that were fun but not very realistic, now I find myself playing a lot slower and most of thee game is spent getting units where I want them.

As I understand it, the game calculates all possible LOS for every position at start-up. If that is correct, would it be possible to toggle on/off an overlay for a unit to show what they can see at any point?

BTW: love the game

[~Viajero]

Silly question here... were your PzIV buttoned up or were their TC's little heads sticking out scouting?

[Cymru]

Silly question here... were your PzIV buttoned up or were their TC's little heads sticking out scouting?

All had the commander gazing at the horizon

[Gustang]

All had the commander gazing at the horizon

Any chance you have a save file to share so we can all see the situation?

[Cymru]

I save my glorious victories, not my embarrassing defeats

[Gustang]

I save my glorious victories, not my embarrassing defeats

Understood. Not that I save that often myself, I just thought it wouldn't hurt to ask.

[A Canadian Cat]

I save my glorious victories, not my embarrassing defeats

LOL I am partial to my defeats actually - good for more laughs.

Do you know which QB map this was on? If so can you describe where the reverse slope you used was? For example on the left side of the objective from the setup zone.