ATG Ammo Bearers.

[Hetzer21]

What are they for? I thought if you kept them near a PaK they'd somehow keep it supplied with ammo. I did find one PaK had it's ammo renewed after running out but since then nada. Do the ATG bearers have to show AT rounds as part of their loadout before they'll work in that role?

[Wego McPbem]

You thought correct, that is how they work. And yes, the ammo bearers show the ammo in their loadout but once thats used up thats it. If you're seeing ammo bearers without any then they must have used it already.

[Hetzer21]

Thanks old chap. I shall use the little buggers as regular infantry from now on (unless they're loaded of course).

[Michael Emrys]

Thanks old chap. I shall use the little buggers as regular infantry from now on (unless they're loaded of course).

You might want to rethink that. If there is a vehicle around with ammo for the ATG, you can run them back to pick up another load from it.

Michael

[womble]

You might want to rethink that. If there is a vehicle around with ammo for the ATG, you can run them back to pick up another load from it.

Michael

What vehicles have you found with ATG ammo, Michael? I've looked and can't see anything heavier than .50cal, except in the case of Mortar halftracks... Not even the jeeps that drag an AT platoon's 57mms around... Looking for tips, not doubtin' you.

[Hetzer21]

That would be seriously good.

It would also be seriously good if AT guns wouldn't waste all their AP ammo firing at infantry. I'm not sure if that's a bug or just a limitation of the engine. Seems that one pretty surefire way to beat AT guns before commiting armor to a PaK-front is to parade some infantry around in front of it for a while. I wouldn't do that myself, it's gamey as hell and would spoil the experience for me.

[Magpie_Oz]

Nah that's not gamey, quite realistic I think to have your infantry coax the enemy ATG's into firing off their rounds. No different to having a tank trick an MG into revealing its position or something like that.

[Michael Emrys]

What vehicles have you found with ATG ammo, Michael? I've looked and can't see anything heavier than .50cal, except in the case of Mortar halftracks... Not even the jeeps that drag an AT platoon's 57mms around... Looking for tips, not doubtin' you.

Full disclosure time: I haven't played any game with ATGs under my command as yet, so I might have been wrong about them having extra ammo available. I was extrapolating from what other posters have written about extra ammo in vehicles. Perhaps if a gun is towed by a truck or HT it will have the extra AP ammo then. Worth checking out some time.

Michael

[John N]

I have to agree with Hetzer on this one. I had a pak 38 waste all of its AP ammo firing at

infantry while 3 tanks stayed just of LOS. A covere arc would not have helped as the infantry were moving in the same LOF as the tanks would have had to move through. I can understand engaging with HE but not AP.

[womble]

Full disclosure time: I haven't played any game with ATGs under my command as yet, so I might have been wrong about them having extra ammo available. I was extrapolating from what other posters have written about extra ammo in vehicles. Perhaps if a gun is towed by a truck or HT it will have the extra AP ammo then. Worth checking out some time.

Michael

Ah, understood. In the interests of discovery, I just flopped out a test QB with a bunch of American towed AT assets from Mech Inf and Infantry Battalions, and the TD (towed) battalion. I couldn't tell which vehicles had extra rounds (if any) because the ATGs seem to start with all of it from bearers and truck. I can't see a team of 6 toting 40 76mm rounds and their gun around. Heck, troops don't seem to be able to carry 8 'zook rounds apiece... Yet if you unhook the ATG from its truck and plonk it somewhere else in the setup zone, neither the ATG ammo bearers nor the tow vehicle has any ATG rounds in their inventory... And moving the ATG from its start point doesn't seem to abandon any rounds. Them artillerists must be pretty buff.

[Hetzer21]

Nah that's not gamey, quite realistic I think to have your infantry coax the enemy ATG's into firing off their rounds. No different to having a tank trick an MG into revealing its position or something like that.

Do you think real AT-gunners would fire AP at infantry? I can't imagine it myself.

[MengJiao]

Ah, understood. In the interests of discovery, I just flopped out a test QB with a bunch of American towed AT assets from Mech Inf and Infantry Battalions, and the TD (towed) battalion. I couldn't tell which vehicles had extra rounds (if any) because the ATGs seem to start with all of it from bearers and truck. I can't see a team of 6 toting 40 76mm rounds and their gun around. Heck, troops don't seem to be able to carry 8 'zook rounds apiece... Yet if you unhook the ATG from its truck and plonk it somewhere else in the setup zone, neither the ATG ammo bearers nor the tow vehicle has any ATG rounds in their inventory... And moving the ATG from its start point doesn't seem to abandon any rounds. Them artillerists must be pretty buff.

I had some hot work with a 57 recently. I unhooked the gun well after the battle started. The crew could push the gun and carry 25 AP rounds. Doing all that, they managed to sneak up on a Panther. I had them target the tank from behind a hedge and they apparently took their time. They had what looked like a clear shot about 200 meters down the sleepy mainstreet of a sleepy provincial French village and after what seemed like 15 minutes they started shooting and promptly bounced half a dozen shells off the back of the tank's turret. Okay, some shots penetrated, but the tank didn't seem too concerned and it began rotating its turret toward the pesky AT gun. The AT gun got another half a dozen hits and the tank became more thoughtful.

After the gun was down to 6 shots, the tank blew up. So that's about 19 hits from behind. Probably only the first 10 or 12 were really necessary. I looked for ATG ammo teams, but didn't locate any (the fighting had been heavy and maybe they ran off or something).

[Kanonier Reichmann]

There's something not quite right the way 57mm AT guns are portrayed if you ask me. I've often seen it used like a large sniper rifle against infantry seeing as it's only armed with AP shells. What's more, the AP hits seem deadly against any groups of infantry as I witnessed when one shot from my AT gun managed to incapacitate 3 individual enemy soldiers.

One could argue that perhaps all 3 men were lined up perfectly for the one shot to intersect all 3 bodies but the movie I saw had the AP shell hit the ground in front of the gaggle with 3 of them collapsing immediately from the explosion.

If 57mm solid shot shells are this deadly against infantry I hate to think what 76mm HE shells are going to do... destroy an entire squad with its first shot?

Regards

KR

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Pretty much, yeah.

I think combat is too lethal in most circumstances, in particular anything shot out of a cannon or large tube being exceedingly deadly.

[Bastables]

There's something not quite right the way 57mm AT guns are portrayed if you ask me. I've often seen it used like a large sniper rifle against infantry seeing as it's only armed with AP shells. What's more, the AP hits seem deadly against any groups of infantry as I witnessed when one shot from my AT gun managed to incapacitate 3 individual enemy soldiers.

One could argue that perhaps all 3 men were lined up perfectly for the one shot to intersect all 3 bodies but the movie I saw had the AP shell hit the ground in front of the gaggle with 3 of them collapsing immediately from the explosion.

If 57mm solid shot shells are this deadly against infantry I hate to think what 76mm HE shells are going to do... destroy an entire squad with its first shot?

Regards

KR

I think the AP rounds used by the US 6pdr is modelled as the M86 AP shell which means an explosive charge. Not the British AP shot. It's only 34g though and with it being armoured piercing it's fuse is in the back to help insure it explodes behind enemy armour.

I do not disagree that's wierd seeing gunners sniping with non HE or canister shells.

[Glukx Ouglouk]

Ah, understood. In the interests of discovery, I just flopped out a test QB with a bunch of American towed AT assets from Mech Inf and Infantry Battalions, and the TD (towed) battalion. I couldn't tell which vehicles had extra rounds (if any) because the ATGs seem to start with all of it from bearers and truck. I can't see a team of 6 toting 40 76mm rounds and their gun around. Heck, troops don't seem to be able to carry 8 'zook rounds apiece... Yet if you unhook the ATG from its truck and plonk it somewhere else in the setup zone, neither the ATG ammo bearers nor the tow vehicle has any ATG rounds in their inventory... And moving the ATG from its start point doesn't seem to abandon any rounds. Them artillerists must be pretty buff.

During setup, the interface shows the gun as having available all ammo carried by its own crew and by its ammo bearer team, even if the ammo bearers aren't near the gun. During the game, the interface should show as available ammo all rounds carried by the gun crew and by any units close enough to share ammo (including its own ammo bearer team, other guns' ammo bearer teams, and probably also other guns - as long as they are close enough). I think that's what you are seeing - ammo available to the gun, as opposed to ammo carried by the gun's crew only.

About AP shells against soft targets: AFAIK, anything in the game bigger than a 37 mm gun (for the US) or a 20 mm gun (for the Germans) fires AP shells with a HE filler, but I'm pretty sure that the fuses used should very seriously limit their use against infantry in the open - those shells are likely to bury themselves in the ground before detonating...

[Bigduke6]

Hear hear. The game is amazingly accurate overall, but the CMSF "HE shells stuffed with nerve gas" are out there in force CMBN.

Pretty much, yeah.

I think combat is too lethal in most circumstances, in particular anything shot out of a cannon or large tube being exceedingly deadly.

[Scipio]

We really need back the covered arcs for vehicels only!