Panzerfaust Limitations

[xian]

I have just read in the CMBN manual that the Schrecks and Fausts cannot be fired from inside buildings. Is this based on a real-world limitation or merely a game design restriction?

Also, what happened to the Panzerfaust 60s and 100s? (were they not available during the CMBN time period?)

[YankeeDog]

I have just read in the CMBN manual that the Schrecks and Fausts cannot be fired from inside buildings. Is this based on a real-world limitation or merely a game design restriction?

Also, what happened to the Panzerfaust 60s and 100s? (were they not available during the CMBN time period?)

Real-world limitation, mostly.

There have been some debates about this on the forum. I think most people are agreement that rocket-type weapons like Panzershrecks would be very difficult fire from buildings except in the case of very large, open interiors -- there is a lot of very hot, incendiary gas that comes out of the back of the tube as the rocket is launched. Bazookas are fundamentally similar.

Panzerfausts use a very different launch mechanism. They're actually a sort of recoilless gun, and the projectile is launched by the detonation of a substantial black powder charge in the tube. So, there's a lot of backblast... perhaps not as bad as a Panzershreck (especially in the case of the smaller 30K), but still not the best thing if you're trying to launch from inside a cozy little Norman dining room.

But there are at least a few historical instances of Panzerfausts being fired from inside buildings. It was almost certainly risky to do so, though, and probably usually required careful selection of launch location in order to ensure there was enough room behind the firer for the backblast to dissipate.

Given how building interiors are highly abstracted in CM, BFC decided to prevent all firing of Fausts, Zooks & Shrecks from within buildings. Arguably, in the future as the game engine is improved, it may make sense to allow at least the Pf. 30K & Pf. 30 to be launched from within buildings, albeit with restrictions as to firing location, and perhaps also suppression & chance of injury to the firing unit (and anyone else in the building at the time).

[Mattias]

I have just read in the CMBN manual that the Schrecks and Fausts cannot be fired from inside buildings. Is this based on a real-world limitation or merely a game design restriction?

Also, what happened to the Panzerfaust 60s and 100s? (were they not available during the CMBN time period?)

It is a real world limitation. The pressure of the gases exiting at the rear of the launcher reflects back at the shooter if there is a big enough obstruction behind him. Then again, if you were to fire it from then inside of a barn your only problem would probably be setting the house on fire CM1 style.

Correct about the 60 and 100´s

M.

[Sergei]

Panzerfaust 60 only started to be produced (or deployed?) in September 1944; Panzerfaust 100 in November or December. So, we will get the Pf 60 in the Market Garden module. Pf 100 will have to wait for the Bulge game.

(Actually, there are models for them both already in the game's data files but no textures. If you know what you're doing, you can rename the MDL files to get them in the game, but that only affects their model, of course.)

[Lunsku]

With the changes on Panzerfaust/Panzershreck/Bazooka firing, it'll be interesting to see how PIAT will work once Commonwealth forces are in. Guessing they might be fireable from inside a building, thanks to the differences in the firing mechanism?

[YankeeDog]

With the changes on Panzerfaust/Panzershreck/Bazooka firing, it'll be interesting to see how PIAT will work once Commonwealth forces are in. Guessing they might be fireable from inside a building, thanks to the differences in the firing mechanism?

We'll have to wait and see how BFC chooses to do it, but they should be. The nature of the PIAT's launch mechanism meant that the backblast was minimal.

Of course the PIAT had it's own drawbacks... it had the nasty habit of causing severe bruising and even breaking the collarbone of the firer if it wasn't held correctly. It was also supposed to automatically re-cock after firing, but often didn't and was apparently a B*tch to re-cock manually.

It also had a somewhat shorter effective range than the Zook or Shreck.

But for shooting at tanks from inside buildings and other enclosed spaces, PIAT was definitely the best of the bunch.

[fallenhalo]

i can see why you wouldnt want to fire either of the 3 inside a building but it has been done in real life. i was just reading in Patton's Vanguard that during the battle for Singling, which was highly documented by the 4th AD that some of the infantry did so. A pair of assault guns were waiting around the corner for shermans to pass by. but some of the infantry spotted them before and warned the shermans. they decided to take a crack at them with bazookas from the attic windows. one of them wouldnt fire and the other they fired 3 times. only to have the rounds bounce off. pesky panzers.

[JonS]

i can see why you wouldnt want to fire either of the 3 inside a building but it has been done in real life.

Yep, and nobody disputes that.

What is in dispute, though, is how often it was done ('not very' seems to be the general rule) and how dangerous it was ('very' seems to be the general rule, which neatly ties back to the answer for the first question).

BFC confront a thorny problem in that if they make something that was occasionally attempted in Real Life possible in the game, it is very easy for what was exceptional in the Real World to become normal in the game world. And that has a highly distortionary effect.

[Tarquelne]

.... it is very easy for what was exceptional in the Real World to become normal in the game world. And that has a highly distortionary effect.

I was reading the other day how sometime in early '45 Joseph Dietrich carefully moved a column or two along the edge of the map. He could have stalled the Allied advance by months if Patton hadn't had all those Jeeps available.

[gunnergoz]

This topic was pretty much beat to death (again) most recently in this thread:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=96073

[LarsS]

I was wondering why it isn't possible to fire these weapons from balconies, but I guess the back blast problem would be the same with any wall close behind the weapon, even if outside. Being outside would only help with over pressure.

[Dadekster88]

Ok, so it's not a faust or zook but still...you can learn something from this.

[akd]

I was wondering why it isn't possible to fire these weapons from balconies, but I guess the back blast problem would be the same with any wall close behind the weapon, even if outside. Being outside would only help with over pressure.

Although certainly a problem, it would depend on the angle. This is more a game limitation. In a building is in a building.

[Magpie_Oz]

The big problem with being upstairs is it really messes with the firing solution. Compensating for the elevation difference over such a short range would be a real bugger as the projectile follows a very arched trajectory. The "muzzle" velocity was only in the order of 30 to 60m/s depending on the variant.

I think a big issue too would be that being on a balcony or in a window or on a roof, 30 to 50m away from a tank is going to make you a pretty obvious target, particularly once you fire.

[wokelly]

It was also supposed to automatically re-cock after firing, but often didn't and was apparently a B*tch to re-cock manually.

Its hard to know really how much of a problem this really was. The PIAT is much like the sten, its really hard to separate truths from rumors about its effectiveness. The PIAT would not recock if you did not hold on to it tightly, it needed to recoil of the charge on the PIAT round to recock, if you did not hold it tightly it would not recock (and potentially break your shoulder as well).