American 76mm AT seems to have 88-style range

[derbius]

I played a QB against the computer on a billiard-ball-flatness map - one of the 76s killed four Pz IVs at nearly a Km range. The other killed 24 (!) light armoured vehicles at a similar range (everything the Germans had left). Moreover they seemed able to do it with amazing efficiency, hardly missing at all. Does this sound familiar?

[derbius]

For the second time I found that instead of retreating and looking for an alternative route when a platoon of armour comes under deadly fire, the AI seems not satisfied until every last element of the platoon goes to the same spot to get eliminated. It isn't until the next platoon comes along that someone in command seems to realise that another route is appropriate. I have seen this behaviour now as both Germans and Americans.

[c3k]

The 76mm vehicle: what was it and what was the crew's experience level?

[womble]

For the second time I found that instead of retreating and looking for an alternative route when a platoon of armour comes under deadly fire, the AI seems not satisfied until every last element of the platoon goes to the same spot to get eliminated. It isn't until the next platoon comes along that someone in command seems to realise that another route is appropriate. I have seen this behaviour now as both Germans and Americans.

Hopefully, a better AI plan would help with the 'sheep of death' behaviour.

[Jonny(FGM)]

IF i remember correctly from my CMx1 days the american 76mm having the power to KO PZIVs at 1km range isn't that unusual, i think even the 75mm can take out a PZIV at that range, however getting the shots on target more often than not wasn't

Definitely noticed a big increase in accuracy from CMx1

[Magpie_Oz]

Here is a copy of an official British Army Manual from 1944 showing chances to hit of the 6lbr, 17lbr and 75mm QF.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/851/accuracy.jpg/

It looks like hitting at 1000+ m with the 75mm is under 30% the 17lbr around 65% so I'd expect the US 76 to be somewhere between the 2.

The big thing I see is the difference in ranges in the 50% chance to hit chart, the lower one. You can see if the target is stationary the chances of hitting it go through the roof.

[MikeyD]

75mm is under 30%

Remember, that could mean you're going to get a first round hit at 1000m 30% of the time, rather than finally hitting something after three tries. So if in the game one-encounter-in-three you're seeing a first round hit at 1000m should you be shocked?

Oh, and about 76mm falling halfway between 75mm and 17 pounder, I thought 17 pounder had accuracy problems. 76mm APCR no doubt fell beneath 17 pounder, not so sure about solid AP.

[akd]

Here is a copy of an official British Army Manual from 1944 showing chances to hit of the 6lbr, 17lbr and 75mm QF.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/851/accuracy.jpg/

It looks like hitting at 1000+ m with the 75mm is under 30% the 17lbr around 65% so I'd expect the US 76 to be somewhere between the 2.

The big thing I see is the difference in ranges in the 50% chance to hit chart, the lower one. You can see if the target is stationary the chances of hitting it go through the roof.

Is the manual yours?

[Magpie_Oz]

AKD: No sadly the manual isn't mine, I just found this one page.

This link has a whole stack of stuff:

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/FM/index.html

MikeyD

Yes I have no hard facts on the 17lbr v 76mm I was mainly going off the higher velocity of the 17lbr but I do recall it had accuracy problems, mainly with the APDS where the S didn't D properly.

[Bastables]

8,8cm flak 36 similar to the gun in the Tiger has a initial Muzzle velocity of circa 820m/s firing Pzgr 39, APCBC. M1 7,62cm firing M62 APC shell is listed as having circa 792m/s. The ballistic properties should be relatively similar until you start hitting crazy circa 2000m ranges when the heavier and larger 8,8cm gun retains it's velocity better than the smaller lighter 7,62cm shell.

Germans figured max deadly range of 1500m for the various 7,5cm l/43/46/48 StuK, PaK and KwK and would also round it down to 1200m (accuarcy? certainty of penetration?). Check Jentz panzer truppen vol 1 and 2 on reports concerning the guns with 750m/s -792m/s. This was the range when gunners could reliably hit and kill T-34s. Remember American and British tanks tend to have thicker armour but the guns were figured to give good accuracy to at least 1200m.

7,62cm gun has only to deal with PIV's which only has 5cm of flat turret armour and (parts of the front of the StuG are only 3cm). The max armour of these two 1942 era upgrades is only 8cm which is effective against the shorter 75cm and not the much more powerful 7,62cm gun which can pentrate 8,8cm of armour at 30 degrees from the vertical at 1000 metres. The PIV and the StuG are 8cm at only 0 to 10 degrees "natural slope."