Questions about Water Tiles and Sunken Roads

[mjkerner]

Water Tiles: Do these have a minimal bank?...in other words, when these meet land tiles, will there be a small natural bank if the scenario/map makers don't "dig" a lake/river/pond/stream bed?

Sunken roads...do we make 'em, or do they come, like many people I know, especially those waiting for the Game/Demo, slightly depressed? I didn't see "sunken road" in the manual's editor selection screen, so I asume we make 'em, but I seem to recall a long-ago thread where BFC said there was a slight depression along the side of cetain road tiles.

Thanks.

[MikeyD]

They (semi)recently refined how river tiles were done. Now if you paint a line of water without elevation points it'll lower the terrain beneath it for nice rounded banks. Actually banks change depending on the terrain type - marsh will be a gentler slope, mud have more fluid contours, etc. Also ford tiles are automatically shallow with a gravel bed for wading across. Of course if you drop in your own elevation points you can change the depth of the water and steepness of the banks. You can have near-vertical cliffs if you want.

Sunken roads. Well, roads do self-contour but they aren't automatically sunk. If you sink them yourself with elevation points the road surface will automatically flatten and the sides will steepen. You can go the other way too, a raised road surface that's flat on top.

[Michael Emrys]

Cool!

Michael

[mjkerner]

They (semi)recently refined how river tiles were done. Now if you paint a line of water without elevation points it'll lower the terrain beneath it for nice rounded banks. Actually banks change depending on the terrain type - marsh will be a gentler slope, mud have more fluid contours, etc. Also ford tiles are automatically shallow with a gravel bed for wading across. Of course if you drop in your own elevation points you can change the depth of the water and steepness of the banks. You can have near-vertical cliffs if you want.

Sunken roads. Well, roads do self-contour but they aren't automatically sunk. If you sink them yourself with elevation points the road surface will automatically flatten and the sides will steepen. You can go the other way too, a raised road surface that's flat on top.

Execellent...better than I hoped!

[mjkerner]

Hey MikeyD, so can my soldiers drown? Or will they be unable to enter water set too deep? In CMSF, you can't enter marsh hexes, IIRC. Same for CMBN marshes?

[Lt Belenko]

If you had a sunken road and the weather was rainy will the depression get muddier than the surrounding road.

Can foxholes fill with water when its raining?

In CMx1 there were birds chirping. Will there be frogs croaking near marshes?

[ChrisND]

Hey MikeyD, so can my soldiers drown? Or will they be unable to enter water set too deep? In CMSF, you can't enter marsh hexes, IIRC. Same for CMBN marshes?

Normal water tiles can't be entered by anyone. Deep ford only infantry can enter. Shallow ford vehicles can as well.

Marsh has been changed. Infantry can move in it slowly, but they are vulnerable and its really slow.

[gunnergoz]

Normal water tiles can't be entered by anyone. Deep ford only infantry can enter. Shallow ford vehicles can as well.

Marsh has been changed. Infantry can move in it slowly, but they are vulnerable and its really slow.

Dang. I was hoping to try out the kubelwagen, amphibious jeep, DUKW and amtracs that are surely in the game...

(deep sigh of wishful thinking)

[Broadsword56]

Roads do self-contour but they aren't automatically sunk. If you sink them yourself with elevation points the road surface will automatically flatten and the sides will steepen. You can go the other way too, a raised road surface that's flat on top.

With that raised road, we could make a map for the famous La Fiere Causeway battle fought by the 101st Airborne just after D-Day. And it should come in handy when it's time to make maps for Operation Market Garden!

[MikeyD]

I've got a scenario in the game with a raised gravel railroad bed, a parallel raised roadway and 150m+ of open wheat field seperating them. I must've been in a nasty mood when I came up with that one.

[ChrisND]

With that raised road, we could make a map for the famous La Fiere Causeway battle fought by the 101st Airborne just after D-Day. And it should come in handy when it's time to make maps for Operation Market Garden!

I'll save you the trouble. I'm about 90% complete with a La Fiere Map (not for official release). It covers the June 9 American attack across the causeway.

[gunnersman]

I've got a scenario in the game with a raised gravel railroad bed, a parallel raised roadway and 150m+ of open wheat field seperating them. I must've been in a nasty mood when I came up with that one.

Thanks for the warning.

[mjkerner]

With that raised road, we could make a map for the famous La Fiere Causeway battle fought by the 101st Airborne just after D-Day.

Broadsword, that's what I've been working on. Although there are no doubt a few scenarios in the game that cover some of these, I want to cover June 6-June 11 actions for the Ste Mere Eglise, La Manoir-the Causeway-Cauquigny-Amfreville, and Chef du Pont. I'll have to fudge until we get French armor, and wait until the first module to get Fallschirmjaeger for the actions around Ste Marie du Mont.

Not alot of change, but of course fewer buildings back then. I have a whole series of photos from Ste Mere Eglise west to Ste Marie du Mont to Bricquebec from that French photo site. I've built the causeway and environs in CMSF--looks goofy with desert buildings and terrain...can't wait to

get my hands on the game.

[mjkerner]

Oh man, Normal Dude...you posted as I was posting. Oh well, I'll be using mine just the same. I won't compete with you, though...that'll be like going against Tyson in the ring! I'd be curious to compare the two someday, just to see how we interpreted the info. I am planning on doing a campaign for the 1st Batt, 505th over that area.

[Broadsword56]

Wow, mj, you really are dedicated! And I see you've got contours every meter -- I've only been doing them every 5 meters. Maybe I should reconsider...although as I read the manual, the elevation tools will automatically fill in the intervening slope between two specific contours. I wonder what the difference would be in final appearance?

[JonS]

In general, you want to keep 'black spot' elevations to a minimum. IMO, I think every metre would be excessive.

[gunnersman]

...although as I read the manual, the elevation tools will automatically fill in the intervening slope between two specific contours. I wonder what the difference would be in final appearance?

Yes! That was one of the biggest differences between the CMx1 and CMx2 editor. This was suppose to decrease the workload somewhat, simplify the terrain building process and all while making slopes appear natural.

[Broadsword56]

In general, you want to keep 'black spot' elevations to a minimum. IMO, I think every metre would be excessive.

What's a "black spot" elevation?

[gunnersman]

What's a "black spot" elevation?

In the editor, if you assign a terrain tile a specific height, depending on how high THAT tile is, the editor attempts to make the surrounding terrain slope naturally, unless, that specific terrain is blocked by "black spots" or black tiles in the map maker. In which case the "black spots" can make the terrain appear a steep slopes or even cliffs, if done correctly.

It is what "anchors" a given terrain elevation so the surrounding tiles do not change elevation to show sloping terrain. If you do not "anchor" certain tiles to an elevation, then the surrounding tiles change elevation depending on how high the "un-anchored" elevation tile is.

Clear as mud?

You can experiment with it in CMSF demo.

PS. Too many "black spot" tiles tend to use up CPU power, as I understand it.

[JonS]

When you fix the elevation of a tile, the elevation marker turns black. Having too many on a map affects game performance.

[mjkerner]

Hi Fellas, I actually re-did the Google contours tonight at every 2 meters from the top of the hill above La Manoir at 21m down to the 5m mark, then 1 meter down to the marsh (0m). I also have one at 3 meters too.

I familiar with those black anchors, JonS...I got some funky looking terrain in CMSF at times if I locked them in too close in height! But I wanted to be able to see what the area looked like in profile by using the Google elevation graph. Anyhoo, I'll probably settle for between 2-4 meters, depending. Maybe 5m.

I really want to do the area right...one of the guys from my very small hometown (and my best childhood buddy's uncle) was a veteran of Sicily and Italy, but was one of the 35 or so 82nd AB troopers who landed and drowned in the marsh north of La Fiere the night of June 5-6. He was in the 505th. It's maybe a little strange or even morbid to some people, but it's sort of in his honor. Of the three guys killed in the war from my hometown (population @1000 in 1944), two were paratroopers. The other one was in the 11th AB, killed near Manila.

[JonS]

Hi Fellas, I actually re-did the Google contours tonight at every 2 meters from the top of the hill above La Manoir at 21m down to the 5m mark, then 1 meter down to the marsh (0m). I also have one at 3 meters too.

I familiar with those black anchors, JonS...I got some funky looking terrain in CMSF at times if I locked them in too close in height! But I wanted to be able to see what the area looked like in profile by using the Google elevation graph. Anyhoo, I'll probably settle for between 2-4 meters, depending. Maybe 5m.

I really want to do the area right...

I have - had? - a similar obsession with modding the OoB and map for another PC game. I've been working on it for about 10 years, although I haven't done anything on it in the last two. It started as a simple idea - adding the Pegasus to the unit icons for a few British airborne units, and snowballed from there. I never managed to really finish it, because there was always one more thing to do, or I'd nearly be done then get an idea that would take 6 months to execute, in which time I'd have had another half-dozen ideas

Something similar overtook me with a CMAK scenario I made. It's called 'Takrouna - Op Oration', or something like that. I at least managed to finish that one though!

edit: Huh. Here it is: http://www.the-scenario-depot.com/scenario_details.html?command=search&db=scenarios.db&eqskudatarq=384

Oh my - has anyone seen this before:

http://maps.yourgmap.com/v/1_m0_Combat_Mission_scenario_locations.html

How very cool!

[Broadsword56]

It's maybe a little strange or even morbid to some people, but it's sort of in his honor. .

Maybe strange to some people, but not to me. Naturally you want to do it right -- this is hallowed ground, after all. I've often felt while making battle maps for wargames a certain -- responsibility I guess I'd say -- to do a good job to honor of all the soldiers who spilled their blood in those little French fields (and all the pixeltruppen soon to follow in their footsteps).

[MikeyD]

For those of you dreaming of making maps but unfamiliar with the CMx2 game engine i strongly advise you grab the CMSF or SM:Afghanistan demos just to try out the editor (You can play in the map editor but you just can't save afterward.) Map editor elevation points don't quite operate the same as map contour lines. Its best if you got a little practice in before tackling anything too ambitious

[mjkerner]

Hey JonS, thanks for that link! I never played CMx1 games...I was too into IL2 for many years and that game's great graphics unfortunately just put me off to alot of ground games that weren't on par. But all is good with CMx2!

I'm afraid my project is maybe heading in the direction yours did, but what they hell. It makes you want to REALLY get to know a battle at the squad level...how high were the hedgerows along the bank? what are the dimension of that churchyard? Just how many guys were likely in that platoon? etc., etc.

Broadsword, I know there are alot of people interested in this game that feel that way, which makes this crowd, and the game developers, testers, and fans special in my book. Thanks for your comment.