Lt Belenko Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 The first time I played CBx1, I sent 2 tanks across a field with a squad behind each one. The squads were both shot to hell. Then I tried a sneak command behind the tanks - same results. Then I read about the tanks just representing a point in space or something. I never tried that again. Now that tanks are actual physical elements, I'm really looking forward to that headgerow Rhino breach with the squad or fire team right behind. The ammo sharing is a wonderful thing too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 So tanks block LOS/LOF now? Do they block it from both enemy vehicles and enemy infantry? What about friendly units? I've seen statements made that suggest vehicles sometimes block LOS and sometimes they don't. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnersman Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 So tanks block LOS/LOF now? Do they block it from both enemy vehicles and enemy infantry? What about friendly units? I've seen statements made that suggest vehicles sometimes block LOS and sometimes they don't. It's weird. There is no friendly fire. That being said. Friendly troops can be hurt by friendly HE, (grenades too) in CMSF. Friendly tanks will shoot "through" friendly tanks which are at 100% capability. Friendly bullets do not hurt the trooper on the ground. But as stated above HE will. But that's in CMSF. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skelley Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Squads with no ammo being able to resupply from vehicles. In CMx1 I hated to have to Leave perfectly good squads a VLs just because they had no ammo. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Friendly tanks will shoot "through" friendly tanks which are at 100% capability. That's unfortunate. I'm not one of those people that cry "gamey!" every time someone does something unconventional, but I have seen some truly gamey tactics made possible by the game allowing friendly tanks to shoot through each other. I remember it being said somewhere that friendly smoking wrecks DO block LOS. I wonder why for LOS purposes vehicles can't be made to pretend all other vehicles are continuously puffing smoke. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Springelkamp Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 That's unfortunate. I'm not one of those people that cry "gamey!" every time someone does something unconventional, but I have seen some truly gamey tactics made possible by the game allowing friendly tanks to shoot through each other. That is why LOS is reciprocal, so friendly tanks don't offer cover to other vehicles. Don't know about friendly infantry and cover from friendly vehicles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 LOS may be reciprocal, but LOF couldn't possibly be. Unless I'm misunderstanding your point. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wodin Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 I never knew friendly tanks could fire through each other...thats not to good. Though i never noticed whilst playing CMSF...which is a good thing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClarkWGriswold Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Steve made comments in one of the other threads (maybe one of the AAR threads?) saying that the LOF behavior for tanks has been changed from CMSF to CMBN. It was confusing and I'm still not sure of exactly how it works, but it apparently has been changed. I think tanks can shoot through dead vehicles now (friendly or enemy), but I'm not positive. Something about preventing the TacAI from pumping round after round into a dead enemy vehicle, trying to hit the one behind it. Smoking vehicles definitely block LOS though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny(FGM) Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 A quick test in CMSF shows that KO'd tanks block bullets very well, but do not block LOS I would imagine live tanks behave in the same way 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Springelkamp Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 I never knew friendly tanks could fire through each other...thats not to good. Though i never noticed whilst playing CMSF...which is a good thing. The reason is the AI cannot take into account all the changing LOF consequences of its own vehicles moving during the turn. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Springelkamp Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 LOS may be reciprocal, but LOF couldn't possibly be. Unless I'm misunderstanding your point. Yet it is for vehicles, with respect to possible blocking other vehicles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 There must be some confusion here (probably mine). If friendly tanks can fire through other non-damaged friendly tanks (LOF/LOS not blocked) and LOF is reciprocal, then enemy tanks could fire though friendly non-damaged tanks also, i.e. all tanks could fire though each other making them invulnerable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Steve made comments in one of the other threads (maybe one of the AAR threads?) saying that the LOF behavior for tanks has been changed from CMSF to CMBN. It was confusing and I'm still not sure of exactly how it works, but it apparently has been changed. I think tanks can shoot through dead vehicles now (friendly or enemy), but I'm not positive. Something about preventing the TacAI from pumping round after round into a dead enemy vehicle, trying to hit the one behind it. Smoking vehicles definitely block LOS though. This post As I pointed out in my reply, what he said was contradictory. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClarkWGriswold Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 This post As I pointed out in my reply, what he said was contradictory. Totally agree with you. I'm still confused as to exactly how it works. I'm hoping Steve (or someone else) will definitively tell us how this works, but I think that LOF is not blocked by dead vehicles in CMBN. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 You may be right, but I think LOS is blocked. My only issue is that friendly undamaged vehicles block neither LOS or LOF. I think :confused: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Springelkamp Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 You may be right, but I think LOS is blocked. My only issue is that friendly undamaged vehicles block neither LOS or LOF. Maybe you can just wait till you can play the game and see how it works, before you conclude that it is fundamentally flawed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Or maybe you could stop putting words in my mouth? That would be much quicker. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatoichi Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Taken from the thread quoted above: Dead vehicles do NOT block LOF only when the target is another vehicle. This is a necessary abstraction to get around a rather big, nasty TacAI problem. Early in CM:SF's history you could safely park behind a wreck and an enemy vehicle on the other side could just pump round after round into the wreck and (probably) not cause any damage. Yet we do allow vehicles to fire through friendly vehicles, which meant that LOF was not "two way" in this circumstance. That's been long since changed so that LOF is blocked in both directions. LOS, on the other hand, is only blocked if the dead vehicle is spewing smoke. That's a new addition to CM:BN. Steve So... Destroyed vehicles do not block LOF for either side when calculating fire between 2 'active' vehicles. LOS for the 2 'active' vehicles is only affected if the destroyed vehicle is smoking. Friendly vehicles can indeed shoot through each other, but as each bullet is tracked, if you aimed at an enemy vehicle and a second enemy vehicle moved in the way during the shell's trajectory, the projectile would hit that vehicle instead. Of course, in the above situation, the shell can carry on through the first enemy vehicle and carry on to hit the second, but that's just an example of how fun this game can be! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 That is most likely how it is, if I had to take a guess. The confusing part, to me, is where Steve says "That's been long since changed so that LOF is blocked in both directions." I'm guessing he meant to say NOT blocked in both directions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatoichi Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 I'm pretty sure it's a typo and he meant to write 'LOF is NOT blocked in both directions' - this would match up with what happens in CMSF anyway. But my brain is hurting now just from thinking about all of this - I'd not be at all surprised to find out I'm talking nonsense, it wouldn't be the first time and it certainly won't be the last! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeW Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 That is most likely how it is, if I had to take a guess. The confusing part, to me, is where Steve says "That's been long since changed so that LOF is blocked in both directions." I'm guessing he meant to say NOT blocked in both directions. Well I think Steve means what he said, LOS is blocked for both. It makes since. If you can shoot through your friendly tank at an enemy tank and he can't shoot back at you, then that isn't right at all and leaves room for gamey tactics. To me both shooting through would be taking a problem and compounding it. I was playing the CM:A demo and one of my units shot through another. I remember thinking that I was glad it didn't cause a friendly fire incident. That would be a real pain to try and move units so they wouldn't be shooting each other all the time. The better way would have been for the unit not to fire or better yet for the AI to make a small adjustment in the movement so the firing order could be obeyed. Losing fire support for part of a minute could be serious, if you were counting on the suppression for infantry to move. The AI loves to replot my movement orders anyway, so it would be nice if it it did so and actually it felt like it was a help. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClarkWGriswold Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Well I think Steve means what he said, LOS is blocked for both. It makes since. If you can shoot through your friendly tank at an enemy tank and he can't shoot back at you, then that isn't right at all and leaves room for gamey tactics. To me both shooting through would be taking a problem and compounding it. Steve specifically said that both sides were treated the same now to prevent players from having an indestructible barrier for their vehicles to hide behind. Presumably, in CMBN, if you can shoot through your tank, so can the enemy. Blocking LOS in both directions doesn't make much sense. What if you have a taller vehicle (a PzIV) behind a shorter one (Stug)? What if the rear-most vehicle is higher in elevation than the front-most vehicle? In these cases should LOS still be blocked? Blocking line of sight just doesn't make sense. It's an imperfect solution, but it seems than making dead vehicles "ghosts" is the only way to get a level playing field and prevent gamey abuse of dead vehicles (other than fixing the issue outright, which it seems is more difficult than it would appear). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJFHutch Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Just about everything really. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Steve said that it blocks LOF both ways and doesn't block LOF both ways. Obviously both cannot be true. From the contradictory scraps of information I've been able to find, this is how I think it works in various siturations: Friendly Destroyed Vehicle Smoking LOS blocked for all units Friendly Destroyed Vehicle Not Smoking LOS not blocked (all units) LOF blocked from vehicles to non-vehicles. Presumably is reciprocal.* LOF NOT blocked from vehicles to other vehicles * This is just an assumption and may be completely wrong. In Steve's post he says "Dead vehicles do NOT block LOF only when the target is another vehicle." Taken literally that would mean that, for example, a towed AT gun would have LOF to an enemy tank but that tank would not have LOF back to the AT gun (because the AT gun is not a vehicle.) Perhaps that was the old behavior, and now LOF is always blocked in both directions? In some ways that would make more sense, although it begs the question of why dead friendly vehicles block LOF but living ones do not... Friendly Vehicle -- Undamaged LOS/LOF not blocked from friendly vehicle to enemy vehicle. Is reciprocal with regard to LOS but NOT with regard to LOF i.e. friendly tanks can shoot through each other. I have no idea if the same holds true for non-vehicles. My guess is that it does, which if true means the OP's tactic of advancing infantry behind friendly tanks used for cover will not work. It would be so much simpler if vehicles always blocked LOF/LOS whether friendly or not, whether dead or alive. I'm not sure why it doesn't work that way. Then again, maybe it does work that way? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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