Mortar Resupply?

[Broken]

In CMBN, a very nice improvement over CM1 is the ability to "resupply" ammo, either from scrounging or, presumably, from vehicles as in CMSF.

Is this possible for 81mm and 60mm mortar ammo? One of the inaccuracies of CM1 (in my mind) was the relative ineffectiveness of light mortars. The main reason was the light ammo load (27 rounds for a German 81mm). Since some studies* indicate that German mortars (81mm and 120mm) accounted for 75%(!) of American casualties in Normandy, it would seem reasonable to allow mortar crews access to more ammo through resupply.

The CM1 load of 27 rounds makes sense for a 81mm crew of 6 moving on the attack, since the combined weight of mortar and ammo is over 300 pounds (136 kg). However, crews in defensive positions would often have access to many more rounds than they could carry.

Can mortar crews resupply in CMBN and if not, can this feature be added to future modules?

*Busting the Bocage:American Combined Arms Operations in France

6 June--31 July 1944, Captain Michael D. Doubler, Combat Studies Institute

[scottie]

Going to go out on a limb here and say I wish i could answer categorically but i honestly cannot remember if this is 100% the case. I would hazard a guess however that if MG teams have ammo bearers its 99.9999999% likely mortar squads will have them too as the programmable support required for this sort of team split and ammo sharing is already in place. Wouldn't make an awful lot of sense not include for mortar squads unless the doctrine of the time expressly restricted it.

[George MC]

On-map mortar teams (part of a TOE) have assigned mortar carriers e.g. US Armoured infantry, the 60mm mortar has an assigned mortar ammo bearer team. You park em close by the mortar and they will share their ammo when the mortar team start to run dry. Similar process for the Germans.

[scottie]

Thank you for the clarification George.

[Chainsaw]

Looking forward to the commonwealth module. the Universal Carriers the british mortar crew used carried around 100 rounds extra

[Broken]

Thanks, George.

Does this mean that infantry units with no TOE vehicles will have no means of resupply except by "scrounging" or sharing?

[George MC]

Thanks, George.

Does this mean that infantry units with no TOE vehicles will have no means of resupply except by "scrounging" or sharing?

Errmm - different question mate You asked about mortar teams and resupply. Same process applies to MG teams.

If your infantry units have no vehicles then yeah they can't re-supply - they need something carrying the ammo to re-supply from. Whether your units need to re-supply during the scenario does depend on a/how long the action lasts b/ your guys live long enough to run out. So yeah no re-supply vehicles e.g. truck, half track, jeep then you either 'scrounge' from the dead and wounded or 'share'.

Infantry units with no vehicles can 'share' ammo by parking a unit with ammo next to a unit without ammo. You'll see the unit who is 'dry' still fire whilst the unit with ammo next door will have it's ammo count go down. Move the unit with ammo away and the 'dry' unit won't have their ammo count go up. Imagine two sections next to each other in action, one is running 'dry', a few shouts and bandoliers of ammo are slung across to the firers.

If there are vehicles on map then your grunts can re-supply from them. So if designing a scenario it's worth thinking about length of action, likelihood of running out of ammo and plan accordingly.

Hope this helps

[zukkov]

oh, i can see it now..."we're out of ammo guys. head back to the truck and we'll resupply!" so they run toward the truck and get there just in time for friendly cas to bomb it and kill them all at the same time. now that's effenciency! :-p

[Broken]

If there are vehicles on map then your grunts can re-supply from them. So if designing a scenario it's worth thinking about length of action, likelihood of running out of ammo and plan accordingly.

Hope this helps

Excellent. Thanks for the info. Now there is a real benefit to having an occasional truck around in the bigger scenarios.

Does resupply extend to small field guns, such as the German 75mm?

In CM1, these guns had 50 rounds of ammo, each weighing in at 13 lbs or 650 lbs altogether. Quite a herculean load for the 6 man crew (not to mention hauling the gun itself). I assumed this was allowed because the horse-teams had been abstracted away to simplify the game.

[JSj]

One of the inaccuracies of CM1 (in my mind) was the relative ineffectiveness of light mortars. The main reason was the light ammo load (27 rounds for a German 81mm). Since some studies* indicate that German mortars (81mm and 120mm) accounted for 75%(!) of American casualties in Normandy, it would seem reasonable to allow mortar crews access to more ammo through resupply.

You know, these figures are probably true for most combat. Artillery is by far the greatest killer on the battlefield. But does that mean we want 75% of the casualties to be caused by artillery in the game? How much fun would it be to spend most of your time calling in artillery, and taking most of your losses from enemy artillery that you can do nothing to counter?

I prefer to think of these battles as showing only the final phase of combat. The time after the initial artillery bombardment, when the units are closing in on each other, so that most artillery have to stop firing to avoid friendly casualties. Light mortars and some air support and artillery may still be used, but most of those 75% casualties have already been sustained before the close in fighting starts.

My point is, you may not want to judge the amount of artillery available in the game against such numbers as the 75% casualties one. Like I said, that number will include the preparatory artillery barrage that happens before the forces close in and start fighting each other.

[womble]

If your infantry units have no vehicles then yeah they can't re-supply - they need something carrying the ammo to re-supply from....

[snip]

If there are vehicles on map then your grunts can re-supply from them. So if designing a scenario it's worth thinking about length of action, likelihood of running out of ammo and plan accordingly.

I'm guessing that there's not an infinite supply of all and any kinds of ammo sitting in the back of every carrier/jeep/kubel/truck/halftrack... So, do vehicles come with a standard load of 'spare' ammo? Or does it have to be placed in the vehicle explicitly? And assuming the latter, is it something that can be done as part of a QB setup, or only in scenario design?

[George MC]

I'm guessing that there's not an infinite supply of all and any kinds of ammo sitting in the back of every carrier/jeep/kubel/truck/halftrack... So, do vehicles come with a standard load of 'spare' ammo? Or does it have to be placed in the vehicle explicitly? And assuming the latter, is it something that can be done as part of a QB setup, or only in scenario design?

Vehicles come with a load of spare ammo. You can vary the amounts in the editor by changing the supply status e.g. full or limited (and various levels in between). Some vehciles might have more specific ammo of one type e.g. a halftrack from an armoured infantry unit will have more ammo specific to it's mounts as say a jeep or kubelwagon might carry.

[vincere]

It's a shame that ammo resupply is limited to vehicles. I seem to recal that Steve said that they'd try to look at other ways of resupply especially for the defender. I wonder if squads sharing ammo is it or whether we'll ever have ammo in a fox hole or building.

[Broken]

You know, these figures are probably true for most combat. Artillery is by far the greatest killer on the battlefield. But does that mean we want 75% of the casualties to be caused by artillery in the game? How much fun would it be to spend most of your time calling in artillery, and taking most of your losses from enemy artillery that you can do nothing to counter?

I prefer to think of these battles as showing only the final phase of combat. The time after the initial artillery bombardment, when the units are closing in on each other, so that most artillery have to stop firing to avoid friendly casualties. Light mortars and some air support and artillery may still be used, but most of those 75% casualties have already been sustained before the close in fighting starts.

My point is, you may not want to judge the amount of artillery available in the game against such numbers as the 75% casualties one. Like I said, that number will include the preparatory artillery barrage that happens before the forces close in and start fighting each other.

I agree that a significant fraction of the 75% of total US casualties caused by mortars happened as massed fires and/or the slow drizzle of harassment fire. It adds no value to have this realistically reflected in the game model.

However, properly placed and registered mortars had a significant tactical impact during the actual battles. This was not reflected in CMBO, where mortars were so ineffective that most unit purchases by savvy players excluded mortars if possible. This was partly because the infantry in CMBO were superhuman, able to charge MG positions head-on. This resulted in unit purchases of infantry, armor, and off-map artillery, but few MGs or mortars.

The situation improved somewhat in CMBB, because attacking became harder, partly due to the greater effectiveness of machine guns. Mortars became handy on the attack for suppressing MGs and other support weapons. Some people complained because infantry could no longer sprint about the battlefield like berzerker Olympic athletes, but it made for a much richer game, in my experience.

But mortars should also be effective on defense, especially for the Germans. If CMBN allows resupply of mortar ammo at a reasonable cost, that element of realism might now be achieved. We will see.

[George MC]

It's a shame that ammo resupply is limited to vehicles. I seem to recal that Steve said that they'd try to look at other ways of resupply especially for the defender. I wonder if squads sharing ammo is it or whether we'll ever have ammo in a fox hole or building.

Ermmm - he didn't ask about bunkers - vehicles and sharing ammo. Anyways you'll be pleased tae hear that yes bunkers do have an ammo supply.

No ammo drops in buildings - least ways not in the beta I'm playing with just now.

[Fredrock1957]

No ammo drops in buildings - least ways not in the beta I'm playing with just now.

As a designer you could just place a truck inside a building... ... In CM:SF I put VBIED's in buildings... One time my opponents Arty took out the building and he emailed like three times 'what happened there' as he was shocked at the size of the explosion...

[Michael Emrys]

Does this mean that infantry units with no TOE vehicles will have no means of resupply except by "scrounging" or sharing?

Seems to me that defending units occupying prepared positions would be likely to have extra ammo available, both where the unit is located and at some designated dump site within running distance.

Michael

[Broken]

Seems to me that defending units occupying prepared positions would be likely to have extra ammo available, both where the unit is located and at some designated dump site within running distance.

Michael

That would be ideal. George MC says above that at least bunkers would be a source of resupply.

[vincere]

Ermmm - he didn't ask about bunkers - vehicles and sharing ammo. Anyways you'll be pleased tae hear that yes bunkers do have an ammo supply.

No ammo drops in buildings - least ways not in the beta I'm playing with just now.

Wow, thanks for that, ammo in bunkers is another step forward.

I get it now- unwashed masses of non beta testers have to think about their direct questions

[JSj]

However, properly placed and registered mortars had a significant tactical impact during the actual battles. This was not reflected in CMBO, where mortars were so ineffective that most unit purchases by savvy players excluded mortars if possible.

The situation improved somewhat in CMBB, because attacking became harder, partly due to the greater effectiveness of machine guns.

Ok, thanks for the explanation, I never played CMBO or CMBB.

[Broken]

Ok, thanks for the explanation, I never played CMBO or CMBB.

You are welcome. Even with the primitive graphics, CMBO was a groundbreaking game.

Ah, for the olden days...

[herr_oberst]

Ermmm - he didn't ask about bunkers - vehicles and sharing ammo. Anyways you'll be pleased tae hear that yes bunkers do have an ammo supply.

No ammo drops in buildings - least ways not in the beta I'm playing with just now.

So you're saying that there aren't any floating blue power-ups hiding in the building my squads can just grab ammo from? Dang.

And I suppose next you'll tell me that there aren't any Space Lobsters either.

[womble]

Ermmm - he didn't ask about bunkers - vehicles and sharing ammo. Anyways you'll be pleased tae hear that yes bunkers do have an ammo supply.

No ammo drops in buildings - least ways not in the beta I'm playing with just now.

Can you put a bunker in a building?

[gunnersman]

Vehicles come with a load of spare ammo. You can vary the amounts in the editor by changing the supply status e.g. full or limited (and various levels in between). Some vehciles might have more specific ammo of one type e.g. a halftrack from an armoured infantry unit will have more ammo specific to it's mounts as say a jeep or kubelwagon might carry.

In CMSF the GUI will tell you how much and what type of ammo there is. There is an actual line item of each type of ammo:

5.56.................500

7.62.................1k

40mm HEDP.......40

40mm HE..........30

66mm................3

84mm................4

Does CMBN do this as well?

The problem however is it does not give the name of the weapon of intended use (if at all). It is more short hand. For instance for the LAW it is "66mm", the AT4 is "84mm". Also there is no differentiation between the 40mm grenade launcher ammo for the M203 and the 40mm ammo for the Heckler and Koch and Mk19 type grenade launchers (other than 40mm PPHE, which is a given if you know what it is). There is no clarification until you try to actually "acquire" the ammo (except in the case of the 40mm). It's through trial and error and research that I had to figure that out.

That being said there are graphic depictions in the window to the left of where the line items are, in the case of the LAWs and AT4s. Same goes for Marine's SMAW and Syrian RPGs.

Can anyone comment on this? Is CMBN pretty much the same? Are the ammo counts as ambiguous?

[Michael Emrys]

Can you put a bunker in a building?

This one appears to be in a building.

Michael