Road columns?

[Broadsword56]

One of the things that bedeviled CMx1 players was moving groups of units along a road. Look at the old forums and you'll see years of posts where players traded tips about various "work-arounds" to make units follow each other while traveling, without running into each other -- all because the game just didn't have a workable and automatic "follow" system.

Has CMBN solved this problem? (Maybe it was already solved with CMSF, I dunno). But curious to know.

[LongLeftFlank]

No, the problem still exists, although I have noticed vehicles will try to stay on paved surfaces where possible while continuing to move toward their waypoints.

I suggested a partial workaround here, together with a pretty picture that I reproduce below, but either I completely confused everyone or it is a complete nonstarter from a programming standpoint.

P.S. This would also greatly reduce the number of clicks, which is very important in RT play.

[Baneman]

It's not a bad idea LLF, but the trouble is, the Road may be skylined or otherwise inderdicted by known enemy assets, so how do you "turn it off" if you don't want your tank/truck/platoon to use it ?

I'd much rather see more intelligent AI where it simply slows down if about to run into a vehicle ahead ( rather than CMx1's Stop/Reverse/Go again method which tended to exacerbate the problem - ie. if one vehicle caught up to the vehicle in front, pretty much every other vehicle behind them using that road was screwed for the rest of that turn - at least )

[Broadsword56]

Yes, this was a really big dissatisfier for me in CMx1 and really made certain types of scenarios all but unplayable.

[LongLeftFlank]

It's not a bad idea LLF, but the trouble is, the Road may be skylined or otherwise inderdicted by known enemy assets, so how do you "turn it off" if you don't want your tank/truck/platoon to use it ?

Easy: don't click on the road. If your intent is indeed to vector directly there (route (1) above), set your first waypoint just short of the road then a second waypoint on it. That way you won't get "defaulted" to the "Pathway".

My bet however is that 80% of the time you DO want to use the road. Once you get used to it, it's easy and intuitive -- 2 clicks instead of 1, rather than the current 2 clicks instead of 8 or more. And programming-wise it would seem a lot easier to implement instead of a whole new set of "form up on me" commands (although I am a big fan of adding formation commands too).

Essentially, in my concept, the scenario designer has the option to preset the waypoints for you along certain complex paths like major roads he expects your units will want to take. It's a courtesy, but never a requirement. Just lets you spend less time clicking waypoints (on pause or not) and more time on the fun stuff. It would also help a hell of a lot with programming AI side movement (infiltrate along that ditch).

[Woest]

Well the game Achtung Panzer: Kharkov 43 has the feature that units will follow the road. Allthough the control layout is one of the weakpoints of the game, once you get the hang of it it works great.

I hope that this feature will make it to CM at least for the user. Perhaps in the next patch

[Broken]

Agree that the old CM convoy road movement was unworkable. A lot of silly bumper-cars behavior.

I think you need two features to make road columns work:

1. A "convoy" formation for vehicles, with units maintaining minimum spacing.

2. "road movement" way points where you need only mark the beginning and end of the road section to be traversed. Ambiguities, such as multiple roads connecting the two points, could be resolved with intermediate way points and/or the computer selecting the shortest road path.

At the start of the game it would be especially useful to place units in convoy formation on a road and simply mark the point further down the road you want the front of the column to advance to.

Also useful for ambush scenarios where a large computer-controlled convoy could be bush-whacked by human-controlled Partisans, say.

[theFightingSeabee]

Hey Broken, I used to live in SB. Also went to UCSB for a year and a half. Love that place!

[Volltreffer]

Well the game Achtung Panzer: Kharkov 43 has the feature that units will follow the road. Allthough the control layout is one of the weakpoints of the game, once you get the hang of it it works great.

I hope that this feature will make it to CM at least for the user. Perhaps in the next patch

Was just going to mention this when I saw your post.

It is a great feature of Achtung Panzer: Kharkov 1943, although takes a little practice switching between the follow on road or cross country in the heat of battle.... its a great feature though that would be great in CM series.

Those Russians could have an amazing game franchise going if they could improve on the infantry in that game, and also their international marketing of that game leaves alot to be desired...

Maybe Battlefront can be Gravisofts international storefront?

[RogCBrand]

Was just going to mention this when I saw your post.

It is a great feature of Achtung Panzer: Kharkov 1943, although takes a little practice switching between the follow on road or cross country in the heat of battle.... its a great feature though that would be great in CM series.

Those Russians could have an amazing game franchise going if they could improve on the infantry in that game, and also their international marketing of that game leaves alot to be desired...

Maybe Battlefront can be Gravisofts international storefront?

I love that game- though another little problem was the occasional a.i. tank trying to mount another tank, to either get stuck or flip over...

[Michael Emrys]

Agree that the old CM convoy road movement was unworkable. A lot of silly bumper-cars behavior.

I settled on a system that works, but it wasn't much fun to use. I would start the turn with the lead vehicle. If it wasn't already on the road, the first waypoint would have it moving to the road. Then I would plot the necessary series of waypoints to follow the road. As has been noted elsewhere, on a curvy road, this was already a PITA. Then I would follow exactly the same procedure with the second vehicle, but starting it with a pause. The third vehicle got two pauses and so forth down the line. Since pauses were of 15 second duration, this meant that there there was more space between vehicles than really necessary, but at least they weren't running into each other. Obviously this was a cumbersome and time consuming process and if you had more than a handful of vehicles you wanted to move down the road, a serious bummer.

Of course the counter-argument to all this is that by its very nature, CM represents engagements where the opposing sides are already in contact and realistically you wouldn't be moving into and out of road formation anyway. But that's not always true. Both in the case of meeting engagements and where reinforcements are entering by road, road formations are quite natural.

Michael

[LongLeftFlank]

In most CMSF (and CMAK NA) desert battlegrounds, most terrain is dry, vegetation-free and accessible to vehicles (though in no wise free of hazards -- rocks, soft sand, etc.), giving the desert wars something of the character of naval battles.

In Europe (or any temperate zone battlefield) in contrast, you have both vegetative and man-made barriers that constrict vehicle movement, as well as the addition of wet or marshy ground which is a hazard in certain spots even in "dry" seasons. Add to that more hazardous environment the more primitive and often underpowered track/drive/steering/navigation designs of WWII era AFVs and you have a fairly strong incentive to stay on the roads unless there's a bloody good reason to venture off them (or you have the time to cautiously stalk out a route to a defensive position)>

I would even venture to say (on no particular evidence, so feel free to call BS) that a disproportionate share of Normandy engagements in which AFVs played a role took place either on or immediately adjacent to a road or track (in other words, in the opening shots of the engagement the vehicles were on the road).

There are exceptions of course -- the large (dry) open fields you see in period newsreels with tanks advancing abreast. And the later war German tanks had definitely learned from road-poor Russia to design tanks with wide tracks and good climbing ability, so they might be bolder.

But in the hedgerow country, taking a vehicle off road without a specific reason to do so (e.g. to get a shot at an identified target) simply raises the risk of needless losses from immobilization or breakdown.

So all the above means to me that anything BFC can do to make road navigation easier in the game system will have a big positive effect on playability.

[SNAFU]

I settled on a system that works, but it wasn't much fun to use. I would start the turn with the lead vehicle. If it wasn't already on the road, the first waypoint would have it moving to the road. Then I would plot the necessary series of waypoints to follow the road. As has been noted elsewhere, on a curvy road, this was already a PITA. Then I would follow exactly the same procedure with the second vehicle, but starting it with a pause. The third vehicle got two pauses and so forth down the line. Since pauses were of 15 second duration, this meant that there there was more space between vehicles than really necessary, but at least they weren't running into each other.

Michael

That's the same mothod I've used. It's the only method that seemed to have a chance of avoiding traffic jams. One important thing to factor in though is the initial facing of the vehicle. If it has to pivot to get on the road it is important to allow extra time for the following unit (and so on down the line). There were times when I would have road marches set where the later vehicles in the colummn were plotted to start their move over 90 seconds from when the lead vehicle did.

It worked reasonably well in scenarios like "2 Pounders and Tigers" where I wanted to rush a platoon of German Inf in halftracks forward to the woods. Usually though, I tried to avoid road marches where the column could be fired at except for very brief glimpses.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

One thing to remember was that in CMx1, if you had any different experience ratings in a line of vehicles, they would have different command delays and screw up your column.

That really shouldn't cause problems to much extent now.

[Broken]

Hey Seabee,

Yeah, Santa Barbara isn't exactly hell on earth. I went to UCSB and more or less just stayed here.

[Broken]

Both in the case of meeting engagements and where reinforcements are entering by road, road formations are quite natural.

Yep, workable road columns would be really nice for meeting engagements. In MEs, you are often racing for the key terrain. It was a real pain with mixed vehicle types/experience levels.

[Michael Emrys]

I would even venture to say (on no particular evidence, so feel free to call BS) that a disproportionate share of Normandy engagements in which AFVs played a role took place either on or immediately adjacent to a road or track (in other words, in the opening shots of the engagement the vehicles were on the road).

Good point. In all the photos I've seen taken in bocage country, the German vehicles are nearly always on a road or on the side of one. An exception usually meant a break in the hedgerow for a vehicle to pass through and a field large enough for a group to deploy in.

Except for the instance of hedgerow busting, I expect the same extends to the US as well.

Michael

[7thGalaxy]

I've never had much trouble in CMSF getting a convoy to work - simply use pauses to make sure that there is enough separation, and plot your points along the roads - it seems to me that the AI keeps vehicles on the roads if they are there (although not if you deliberately tell them to go off the road).

The AI will pause the vehicles if they come into contact, or route around them.

[LongLeftFlank]

The TacAI definitely has some bias toward paved surfaces; on my Ramadi map, vehicles consistently left the roadway at one point to get onto the cobblestoned surface adjacent to it. I had to put in a wall to prevent it.